EXPERTS ONLY !!!Restoring from seed + offline signing of tx

[Sawadekub]

since offline computer do not have the update bitcoin address if i already used 5 bitcoin address and i have 5 unused address.. how is my offline computer going to see the 5 new address.


and if i restore from seed.. from an offline computer... how does electrum pull out 5 used address and 5 new address for me to see?

[shorena]

since offline computer do not have the update bitcoin address if i already used 5 bitcoin address and i have 5 unused address.. how is my offline computer going to see the 5 new address.

If you generate the new addresses on the offline computer they are there allready. If you dont generate them there, why bother with an offline computer for keeping your private keys anyway?

and if i restore from seed.. from an offline computer... how does electrum pull out 5 used address and 5 new address for me to see?

Thats the whole point of the seed. Same seed generates same addresses everytime.

[dabura667]

since offline computer do not have the update bitcoin address if i already used 5 bitcoin address and i have 5 unused address.. how is my offline computer going to see the 5 new address.


and if i restore from seed.. from an offline computer... how does electrum pull out 5 used address and 5 new address for me to see?

When you create addresses with Electrum, the program remembers an index number with each address.

To make it simple: Think of your "seed" as the private key for the first address #1.

Then add 1 to your seed to get the private key for address #2

Then add 2 to your seed to get the private key for address #3... etc etc


Because of this, when you are online with your watch-only wallet, your online computer says "ok, these addresses I am using to spend bitcoin are #13 #17 and #378."

The offline computer doesn't know the balance of each address, so it doesn't know how many to show you on the screen... BUT, when you sign a transaction. That transaction tells offline Electrum which order of addresses are used... then Electrum adds the proper number to the seed and creates the private keys for each address needed for signing. It then promptly discards the private keys after done signing. (the only thing it saves is the seed, that is all it ever needs)

So in your instance, you used 5 addresses and created 5 new ones, so you used #1-5 and now have #6-10 displayed... if you send bitcoins from #8, the txn file that you sign tells the offline Electrum "Hi, this address is #8, so add 7 to the seed please!" and that is how it signs it.

[Sawadekub]

since offline computer do not have the update bitcoin address if i already used 5 bitcoin address and i have 5 unused address.. how is my offline computer going to see the 5 new address.


and if i restore from seed.. from an offline computer... how does electrum pull out 5 used address and 5 new address for me to see?

When you create addresses with Electrum, the program remembers an index number with each address.

To make it simple: Think of your "seed" as the private key for the first address #1.

Then add 1 to your seed to get the private key for address #2

Then add 2 to your seed to get the private key for address #3... etc etc


Because of this, when you are online with your watch-only wallet, your online computer says "ok, these addresses I am using to spend bitcoin are #13 #17 and #378."

The offline computer doesn't know the balance of each address, so it doesn't know how many to show you on the screen... BUT, when you sign a transaction. That transaction tells offline Electrum which order of addresses are used... then Electrum adds the proper number to the seed and creates the private keys for each address needed for signing. It then promptly discards the private keys after done signing. (the only thing it saves is the seed, that is all it ever needs)

So in your instance, you used 5 addresses and created 5 new ones, so you used #1-5 and now have #6-10 displayed... if you send bitcoins from #8, the txn file that you sign tells the offline Electrum "Hi, this address is #8, so add 7 to the seed please!" and that is how it signs it.

lets say i am seeding my first time in a new laptop offline and what addresses does it shows? the 5 addresses that was long time ago.. or it will show 5 used and 5 unused? which lolz?

[dabura667]

If the laptop is offline, it will only show addresses 1 - 5... it will not be connected to the internet, so it will not be able to know to hide 1-5 and show 6-10. It will just show 1-5 and sit there.

In order to use an offline wallet, you need an online watch-only wallet counter part. This watch-only wallet has all your addresses, but it does NOT contain your seed. This way you will never get your bitcoins stolen from your online machine.

If you take a seed, like let's say

Code:

belly fate clutch pour flirt disguise baby alter rip quite law existence

and let's say you type that in to 100000000 different offline notebook PCs... it will show you the same addresses EVERY TIME.

If you copy the "Master Public Key" from the "Wallet" menu, and you use that Master Public Key to create a watch-only wallet, you will create the SAME EXACT ADDRESSES AS YOUR OFFLINE WALLET.

However, the online wallet will see the balances, so it will know which addresses to hide and which ones to show. (Electrum hides an address if it has any transactions in its history AND the current balance of that address is 0. Then it will hide the address.

Edit: if you want to check, the Master Public Key for the seed above is :

Code:

6836ca7cd1530300e92c719bfb0bdf74bdffaeb58c9b3c500bc12af6309e5ce89e10d97a927cc042c39f9d4fd1598e4c6cc73732286aaa11451a33f27a749cf8

And the first 50 addresses for the seed / master public key are below.

Try restoring the seed or master public key above and notice that they will always come out to the same first 5 addresses. If you want to see more addresses in your Receive group, just type in

Code:

wallet.storage.put('gap_limit', XX)

inside the Console tab, replace XX with the number of addresses you want to see... once you put it in, you have to close the wallet then open the wallet again. If you have a slow computer, showing more than 20 at a time can slow you down with generating addresses.


WARNING: THIS IS POSTED ON THE INTERNET, PLEASE DON'T ACTUALLY USE THIS SEED. YOUR BITCOINS WILL BE STOLEN.

Code:

1Jxau8jEq2WhuzMip2pT3er2ZbMU3Y3sTf
1p12G5PtksgufAGUnsQ6jSGsbSJJnJD9t
1JTdVNVDe9DmnSXhK3wDqejohappV8qspJ
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14heLND5Q6PMeQx5gggMiy8kpLTXfydfZD
15piigr7u6tcQ19Yqz7TFn1PQt6PqNNZ38

[Sawadekub]

If the laptop is offline, it will only show addresses 1 - 5... it will not be connected to the internet, so it will not be able to know to hide 1-5 and show 6-10. It will just show 1-5 and sit there.

In order to use an offline wallet, you need an online watch-only wallet counter part. This watch-only wallet has all your addresses, but it does NOT contain your seed. This way you will never get your bitcoins stolen from your online machine.

If you take a seed, like let's say

Code:

belly fate clutch pour flirt disguise baby alter rip quite law existence

and let's say you type that in to 100000000 different offline notebook PCs... it will show you the same addresses EVERY TIME.

If you copy the "Master Public Key" from the "Wallet" menu, and you use that Master Public Key to create a watch-only wallet, you will create the SAME EXACT ADDRESSES AS YOUR OFFLINE WALLET.

However, the online wallet will see the balances, so it will know which addresses to hide and which ones to show. (Electrum hides an address if it has any transactions in its history AND the current balance of that address is 0. Then it will hide the address.

Edit: if you want to check, the Master Public Key for the seed above is :

Code:

6836ca7cd1530300e92c719bfb0bdf74bdffaeb58c9b3c500bc12af6309e5ce89e10d97a927cc042c39f9d4fd1598e4c6cc73732286aaa11451a33f27a749cf8

And the first 50 addresses for the seed / master public key are below.

Try restoring the seed or master public key above and notice that they will always come out to the same first 5 addresses. If you want to see more addresses in your Receive group, just type in

Code:

wallet.storage.put('gap_limit', XX)

inside the Console tab, replace XX with the number of addresses you want to see... once you put it in, you have to close the wallet then open the wallet again. If you have a slow computer, showing more than 20 at a time can slow you down with generating addresses.


WARNING: THIS IS POSTED ON THE INTERNET, PLEASE DON'T ACTUALLY USE THIS SEED. YOUR BITCOINS WILL BE STOLEN.

Code:

1Jxau8jEq2WhuzMip2pT3er2ZbMU3Y3sTf
1p12G5PtksgufAGUnsQ6jSGsbSJJnJD9t
1JTdVNVDe9DmnSXhK3wDqejohappV8qspJ
1BYET2DA1AAukqX63gTssDzmPL9MxEJZqB
1GBVFhdDQGhJuJu9vPW8CDkskNzVMifpzj
1MTGTgYR4eHmUwM8nyzX8rbaRtu9CKFjPQ
1qLaGQRYGurynWFrKQaHX6xzMoNya3wnU
1CsEDqrrewMVBoSTTk266XYmWdeo4tFy4F
1F9SFRyDFmqXo8hE4aKUtYedG3GKzXPnaa
1Nzt9gKrXNGwM3CyEbsgbDWm1xyKpKd96X
15hJxqFDvWUXLpL5DkBHaAt4udxUWWVJvG
1KJyZmYLFmpwPqUoizMZMV1hoHrsdmguLs
17zPYVwDr2RskimEaeC14VxdrbWLL5DUpf
1GiXYRpSZ6KyF3qVG1kUGsCAHXFcZN7T5B
16cYvrJ8hJqFE3SSs4pW6P5rpjpmor4WZr
18RyZ6z7k4Uwiuyv3fE4uP251KRD4Jk2u1
1vWrd5Zb1cPak1uv4jBtugQTjQD2Pt17A
1LdcnY2Q9JQmHRYWkDmX1VNKDe4aD3dDqR
1Nc9qUjZPa5r8cb3ds6kQQMY4h6bbDtscs
17GKJUiZKv8DgbbGBnLXNGSnWdYHvreKJh
1DFmUSVFeFAxvZpnFFxEQ1e2bbmirorrcF
1MrqK9YsyphYBm4wx9xPRZTZMkN4Sgrc2H
1A6UEFHhztemDX2gG9CDRC1Yr7fJNFrz3B
1CnCNDwoRXujSBRmyLoFUbnpg3UrAKDf69
1F2hAec2RsQSR8ZdEuzekdwS1tiYhkCXzw
1KAvztcZMEEX1wYh2rXv1BfnPy1eaVTn6g
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1JeA82GsdxwQ4RgrW6Y1iTYKup8hgCU3rv
1Q55GgQyxW2Zy68MtjZqd5WDr8kYDqufFd
1LL8t64vczwefWyse5z85AU9LpHMFsXwDC
19DoLXs4B4vEPVWV1TAZw11r7K7FyrHJp3
1H1RSqAmdKa3YyZRn9aT7Yn6kVAgbYZtpJ
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1u7dKfJBMApAZAhYXEE7wpi2KCNAichmq
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12xNr2DTvMxXv2QM1ioRXS9GDU8mKru82i
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17p15qj9UYdkfS7wzthUPfLtiZ8FkEYTDJ
1DKL8ojSb6avmFDRC61D36Rtdbq9HAUGru
14heLND5Q6PMeQx5gggMiy8kpLTXfydfZD
15piigr7u6tcQ19Yqz7TFn1PQt6PqNNZ38

GREAT I GET IT NOW!! thanks my saviour.. CONSOLE is the word.. anyway where to get all these functions to type in the console? i just knew about this console =)

so everytime u add the gap limit it always shows the same address on the offline computer?

how do i know what can console do other then just wallet.storage.put('gap_limit', XX)? where is the link for the command lines?

[dabura667]

GREAT I GET IT NOW!! thanks my saviour.. CONSOLE is the word.. anyway where to get all these functions to type in the console? i just knew about this console =)

so everytime u add the gap limit it always shows the same address on the offline computer?

DO.... NOT........ CHANGE...... THE...... GAP..... LIMIT!


The only reason you should change the gap limit is the following reasons:

1. you need to have more than 5 addresses at a time. (like you want to send small amounts to 50 of your addresses in one transaction)
2. you want to check a specific address.

If you change the gap limit without understanding it, this is what will happen:

1. you change the gap limit to 100.
2. you send bitcoins to address #100.
3. you restore the seed later.
4. your wallet shows no bitcoins.


If you use a 100 gap limit... you MUST set the gap limit to 100 EVERY TIME YOU RESTORE THE WALLET USING YOUR SEED.

Otherwise your wallet will not see the bitcoins.



There is no reason to change the gap limit except if you're studying how it works or if you want to use more than 5 addresses all at once, in one transaction.


the offline wallet will always only show the first 5 addresses, BUT it can sign for any address, even #13279947, because the signing of Electrum does not need to generate the address to sign for it.

[Sawadekub]

GREAT I GET IT NOW!! thanks my saviour.. CONSOLE is the word.. anyway where to get all these functions to type in the console? i just knew about this console =)

so everytime u add the gap limit it always shows the same address on the offline computer?

DO.... NOT........ CHANGE...... THE...... GAP..... LIMIT!


The only reason you should change the gap limit is the following reasons:

1. you need to have more than 5 addresses at a time. (like you want to send small amounts to 50 of your addresses in one transaction)
2. you want to check a specific address.

If you change the gap limit without understanding it, this is what will happen:

1. you change the gap limit to 100.
2. you send bitcoins to address #100.
3. you restore the seed later.
4. your wallet shows no bitcoins.


If you use a 100 gap limit... you MUST set the gap limit to 100 EVERY TIME YOU RESTORE THE WALLET USING YOUR SEED.

Otherwise your wallet will not see the bitcoins.



There is no reason to change the gap limit except if you're studying how it works or if you want to use more than 5 addresses all at once, in one transaction.


the offline wallet will always only show the first 5 addresses, BUT it can sign for any address, even #13279947, because the signing of Electrum does not need to generate the address to sign for it.

ok i got it now thanks IMBA =)

anyway is there anymore commands lines other then the gap limit?

[dabura667]

ok i got it now thanks IMBA =)

anyway is there anymore commands lines other then the gap limit?

You can do anything in the console. It's a python console, so you can import classes from any of the files in electrum.

You could do almost everything, granted the code was in the source.

[Sawadekub]

GREAT I GET IT NOW!! thanks my saviour.. CONSOLE is the word.. anyway where to get all these functions to type in the console? i just knew about this console =)

so everytime u add the gap limit it always shows the same address on the offline computer?

DO.... NOT........ CHANGE...... THE...... GAP..... LIMIT!


The only reason you should change the gap limit is the following reasons:

1. you need to have more than 5 addresses at a time. (like you want to send small amounts to 50 of your addresses in one transaction)
2. you want to check a specific address.

If you change the gap limit without understanding it, this is what will happen:

1. you change the gap limit to 100.
2. you send bitcoins to address #100.
3. you restore the seed later.
4. your wallet shows no bitcoins.


If you use a 100 gap limit... you MUST set the gap limit to 100 EVERY TIME YOU RESTORE THE WALLET USING YOUR SEED.

Otherwise your wallet will not see the bitcoins.



There is no reason to change the gap limit except if you're studying how it works or if you want to use more than 5 addresses all at once, in one transaction.


the offline wallet will always only show the first 5 addresses, BUT it can sign for any address, even #13279947, because the signing of Electrum does not need to generate the address to sign for it.

ok i got it now thanks IMBA =)

anyway is there anymore commands lines other then the gap limit?

so If you change the gap limit without understanding it, this is what will happen:

1. you change the gap limit to 100.
2. you send bitcoins to address #100.
3. you restore the seed later.
4. your wallet shows no bitcoins.

u r talking about offline wallet or online wallet? shows no bitcoins? and if it does not show i will just set the gap to 100 back and it will show right?

[dabura667]

u r talking about offline wallet or online wallet? shows no bitcoins? and if it does not show i will just set the gap to 100 back and it will show right?

I am talking about online wallet and watch-only online wallet.

The addresses will be there, but you will not see them, and they will not be in your balance.

Yes, if you set the gap limit to 100 again, you should see the address again, and it will be added to your balance again.

Trust me, you will forget about gap limit, then think you were stolen from... forgetting things happens every day.

Also, your family might be able to recover your seed someday when everyone understands Electrum, but if you are using crazy gap limits, they will just give up after 5 or so addresses. EDIT: like if you died or something.


So I do not recommend changing the gap limit unless you have a set reason to.

[Abdussamad]

anyway is there anymore commands lines other then the gap limit?

Using your operating system's command line (not electrum console) you can run a lot of commands. On windows this is known as the command prompt. On MacOSx I think it is the terminal app and on other *nix based operating systems it is the shell. Run the following in the shell and you'll see a list of commands:

Code:

electrum help

For command specific help type something like this

Code:

electrum help signmessage

[Sawadekub]

so what will u do if u have use more then 5 addresses? make a new seed?

[dabura667]

No, you keep using it until forever.

Electrum wallets can make unlimited addresses, you don't only have to use 5.



If you are trying to ask "Should I delete my wallet that I created more than 5 addresses for using gap_limit?"

The answer is "no". As long as you don't leave a gap in the addresses you use, it doesn't matter.

Electrum will by defauly search for "the first 5 addresses with no transaction history" and once it finds that, it will stop searching for new addresses. (this is called a gap_limit of 5)

If you set the gap_limit to 6, then use ONLY address #6 to store bitcoins. Restoring that seed by default in Electrum will only show 5 addresses, so you will see that and think "OH NO I LOST MY BITCOINS!"

But in reality, if you send bitcoins to any one of the first 5 addresses, it will generate the 6th address, and your balance will be found. OR you can reset the gap_limit to 6. However, if you leave your electrum seed after you die, your family might not understand gap_limit and think you have no bitcoins, even if you know your #6th address has bitcoins.

You can use the wallet, as long as you don't leave a large gap between the addresses you use.


Also, a reminder: THE SEED I POSTED IS NOT SAFE. IT IS POSTED ON THE INTERNET AND ANYONE CAN SEE IT, SO DO NOT SEND BITCOINS TO IT.

[Sawadekub]

No, you keep using it until forever.

Electrum wallets can make unlimited addresses, you don't only have to use 5.



If you are trying to ask "Should I delete my wallet that I created more than 5 addresses for using gap_limit?"

The answer is "no". As long as you don't leave a gap in the addresses you use, it doesn't matter.

Electrum will by defauly search for "the first 5 addresses with no transaction history" and once it finds that, it will stop searching for new addresses. (this is called a gap_limit of 5)

If you set the gap_limit to 6, then use ONLY address #6 to store bitcoins. Restoring that seed by default in Electrum will only show 5 addresses, so you will see that and think "OH NO I LOST MY BITCOINS!"

But in reality, if you send bitcoins to any one of the first 5 addresses, it will generate the 6th address, and your balance will be found. OR you can reset the gap_limit to 6. However, if you leave your electrum seed after you die, your family might not understand gap_limit and think you have no bitcoins, even if you know your #6th address has bitcoins.

You can use the wallet, as long as you don't leave a large gap between the addresses you use.


Also, a reminder: THE SEED I POSTED IS NOT SAFE. IT IS POSTED ON THE INTERNET AND ANYONE CAN SEE IT, SO DO NOT SEND BITCOINS TO IT.

ok...thanks dude =)

so can i ask how secure it is to use dual boot for online windows 7 seedless wallet and offline(becuz i disable the networking on my unbuntu OS) and it contains my seed ?

is this consider as offline? because virus from windows cannot enter unbuntu i suppose

[dabura667]

No, you keep using it until forever.

Electrum wallets can make unlimited addresses, you don't only have to use 5.



If you are trying to ask "Should I delete my wallet that I created more than 5 addresses for using gap_limit?"

The answer is "no". As long as you don't leave a gap in the addresses you use, it doesn't matter.

Electrum will by defauly search for "the first 5 addresses with no transaction history" and once it finds that, it will stop searching for new addresses. (this is called a gap_limit of 5)

If you set the gap_limit to 6, then use ONLY address #6 to store bitcoins. Restoring that seed by default in Electrum will only show 5 addresses, so you will see that and think "OH NO I LOST MY BITCOINS!"

But in reality, if you send bitcoins to any one of the first 5 addresses, it will generate the 6th address, and your balance will be found. OR you can reset the gap_limit to 6. However, if you leave your electrum seed after you die, your family might not understand gap_limit and think you have no bitcoins, even if you know your #6th address has bitcoins.

You can use the wallet, as long as you don't leave a large gap between the addresses you use.


Also, a reminder: THE SEED I POSTED IS NOT SAFE. IT IS POSTED ON THE INTERNET AND ANYONE CAN SEE IT, SO DO NOT SEND BITCOINS TO IT.

ok...thanks dude =)

so can i ask how secure it is to use dual boot for online windows 7 seedless wallet and offline(becuz i disable the networking on my unbuntu OS) and it contains my seed ?

is this consider as offline? because virus from windows cannot enter unbuntu i suppose

I always pull out the LAN cable so no internet connection is possible.

I highly recommend this if you plan to use a lot of bitcoins.


But you should be OK.

[Sawadekub]

i am using wireless.. so i just right click disable wifi ..


so u mean should be ok if i dual boot... windows = online and unbutu = offline.. even my windows have virus will they run to the unbuntu to collect the files and sent back to windows via the internet thru the hacker?

[jonald_fyookball]

i am using wireless.. so i just right click disable wifi ..


so u mean should be ok if i dual boot... windows = online and unbutu = offline.. even my windows have virus will they run to the unbuntu to collect the files and sent back to windows via the internet thru the hacker?

This is not a high-security solution IMO.

If you have a virus or keylogger it could broadcast your seed when you go online.
The safest method is use a dedicated machine that is offline permanently.

[Abdussamad]

i am using wireless.. so i just right click disable wifi ..


so u mean should be ok if i dual boot... windows = online and unbutu = offline.. even my windows have virus will they run to the unbuntu to collect the files and sent back to windows via the internet thru the hacker?

It's possible but unlikely. Malware is usually targeted at a large number of people. So windows malware is windows only. You would have to be targeted specifically with custom malware that can read ext4 partitions.

[Sawadekub]

i am using wireless.. so i just right click disable wifi ..


so u mean should be ok if i dual boot... windows = online and unbutu = offline.. even my windows have virus will they run to the unbuntu to collect the files and sent back to windows via the internet thru the hacker?

This is not a high-security solution IMO.

If you have a virus or keylogger it could broadcast your seed when you go online.
The safest method is use a dedicated machine that is offline permanently.

how can a keylogger in windows read unbutu OS when i am running windows? becuz i can only run 1 os at a time with dual boot.. whats the risk like? 1%? or 0.00000001%? (if i scan my usb stick with a virus scanner if i wanna sign files)