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Joe200 (OP)
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June 12, 2014, 09:11:24 PM
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Not sure if this is the right place to post this. Are there any good discussions of Swarm? What are people's thoughts about it? http://www.swarmcorp.com/
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June 12, 2014, 09:19:16 PM
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I don't completely get the point. Anyone can already launch their own "coin" on Counterparty. What is the value added by Swarm? They just make it sleeker / easier and promote the new coin?
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June 13, 2014, 08:29:11 AM
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Its more of a trapeze than a pyramid - as ways to get money from people for nothing its creative - ya gotta give em that !

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June 13, 2014, 02:16:16 PM
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Regarding Swarm: http://www.coindesk.com/sec-delay-crowdfunding-rules-stifling-bitcoin-innovation/

Quote
Brian Klein is a partner at the Los Angeles-based litigation boutique Baker Marquart LLP, the chair of the Bitcoin Foundation’s legal advocacy committee (although he is not writing here on behalf of the foundation), and a former US federal prosecutor. This article was co-authored alongside Molly White, a partner at McGuireWoods LLP in Los Angeles and a former SEC enforcement attorney.

Crowdfunding

Crowdfunding has undoubtedly become an important way for emerging and innovative companies to raise money. Look no further than Soylent (the high-profile and controversial food replacement product), which raised millions through crowdfunding.

Not surprisingly, entrepreneurs are developing bitcoin-powered companies and applications that could revolutionize both the crowdfunding field and the cryptocurrency space.

With the assistance of the bitcoin protocol, a company that wants to crowdfund can potentially avoid using current and perhaps more costly third-parties like Kickstarter and Indiegogo.

Examples of bitcoin crowdfunding platforms that are in development include Mike Hearn’s Lighthouse app and Joel Dietz’s Swarm (which describes itself as ‘the Facebook of crowdfunding’).

Unfortunately, crowdfunding’s (and thus bitcoin’s) ability to reach its full potential is stalled, for the time being. This is because the SEC has not yet issued rules that would allow crowdfunding as a way to sell equities in a company (ie: stock).
The background

In April 2012, Congress enacted the Jumpstart Our Business Startups Act (or JOBS Act), legislation meant to make it easier for small businesses to raise money. One way that Congress sought to do that was to allow companies to use crowdfunding to raise up to $1 million in a 12-month period.

However, because Congress believed crowdfunding could increase the possibility of investment fraud, it put in place some significant limitations. Those measures include limiting the amount of money that an investor can invest – up to $2,000 or 5% of the investor’s annual income (whichever is greater) – as well as requiring companies to crowdfund through an intermediary and to make certain disclosures to potential investors.

Congress also directed the SEC to issue rules to implement fraud protection.

Crowdfunding through an intermediary means working with either a registered broker-dealer or a funding portal registered with the SEC. For a crowdfunding website to qualify as a funding portal and sell equities, that website will have to be a member of FINRA, be registered with the SEC, and be subject to SEC examinations. As for the disclosure requirements, they will be substantial.

In October 2013, the SEC proposed rules to govern the offer and sale of securities through crowdfunding. If those rules are enacted (as is expected), a company will have to disclose:

    The identity and business experience of its directors, officers, and anyone who holds more than 20% of the company’s shares
    The nature of the business
    The risk factors in making the investment
    Any related-party transactions between the company and directors, officers, or family members
    Information about any other exempt offerings in past three years
    How it will use the funds that it raises
    Financial information about the company
    The amount and the terms of outstanding debt
    Information about the number, type and price of securities offered
    The target amount the company would like to raise and the deadline for reaching the target

Adverse consequences

It is now June 2014. When Congress enacted the JOBS Act in April 2012, it gave the SEC 270 days – until January 2013 – to adopt its rules. With that date now long past, and with the passage of eight months since the SEC proposal, one can only hope that the rules will be finalized by the end of this summer.

In the meantime, offering securities in a crowdfunding campaign, regardless of the country of origin, may and likely does violate SEC regulations, among other potential problems. Failing to wait for the SEC to finish its rule making risks an SEC investigation and significant adverse consequences, potentially even criminal consequences.

The SEC needs to enact the crowdfunding rules as soon as possible. Doing so will help everyone, including bitcoin enterprises that are developing crowdfunding applications, or that are hoping to tap into crowdfunding for raising money. Innovation should not have to wait any longer.
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June 13, 2014, 02:47:06 PM
Last edit: June 13, 2014, 04:01:57 PM by fractastical
 #5

I don't completely get the point. Anyone can already launch their own "coin" on Counterparty. What is the value added by Swarm? They just make it sleeker / easier and promote the new coin?


It's somewhat similar to Kickstarter but for crypto. Anyone can do a fundraiser now, but it's a lot easier to do it when you have a nice user interface and a page telling you details about the project.


There is a whole article on SWARM on Coindesk (http://www.coindesk.com/swarm-take-bitcoin-crowdfunding-new-heights/):


How Swarm Plans to Become the Facebook of Crowdfunding
Richard Boase (@richardboase) | Published on June 9, 2014 at 16:43 BST | Bitcoin protocol, News, Regulation, Technology
inShare
65Share84
Swarm Logo
A new company called Swarm Corp is launching a decentralized crowdfunding platform that will allow companies to sell cryptographic shares easily and quickly by creating their own digital currencies.

Swarm’s COO Ben Ingram described the platform as “the Facebook of crowdfunding”. Powered by the Counterparty protocol, it effectively operates like a social network for cryptocurrency investors.

As well as helping entrepreneurs kickstart their financial product or service, Swarm aims to eliminate previous failures and scammers by performing crowdsourced due diligence on each entrepreneur or team.

The company’s CEO Joel Dietz envisages that the best initial use case is in accelerating startups, and Ingram indicated that there are already plans for a Swarm incubator based in London.

Dietz said: “The moment I saw the user-created assets on Counterparty a light bulb came on in my head – this is the future of crowdfunding.”

Experienced team

To raise initial capital, Swarm will be issuing its own cryptocurrency, swarmcoin, starting with a crowdsale on 17th June, which will entitle investors to a portion of the coins launched on the company’s platform in future.

Following David Johnston’s strict approach to BitAngel investing, which demands that both investments and subsequent returns are made in bitcoin, Dietz plans to raise capital for his first round using only the digital currency – a process which he described colourfully as “eating our own dogfood”.

Adam Krellenstein and Evan Wagner, the dynamic duo that founded Counterparty XCP (the platform upon which Swarm is being launched) have been working with Swarm’s five-strong team over the last few months, and said:

“Swarm brings a high level of ability and experience to the first real crowdfunding platform, with a senior engineer previously with Microsoft and Linkedin, a Salesforce MVP, alumni from Loyola, Brown, Harvard and Penn State, and an accomplished user-interface and design specialist.

Collective intelligence

For those in the know, Counterparty is akin to the mastercoin protocol and leverages the bitcoin block chain to offer services – much like a decentralized exchange for tokens, assets, smart property and potentially, shares, stocks and bonds.

Where the mastercoin and Counterparty protocols apparently differ is in their governance and issuance structure.

The now not-so-anonymous XCP devs said that they looked at the mastercoin protocol and “basically threw out everything [they] didn’t like”, creating “a simpler better version of a Bitcoin 2.0 protocol”, which is ideally suited to enable crowdfunding and accelerators, adding:

“Swarm is based on the idea that the collective intelligence of decentralized networks can evolve faster and out-perform centralised systems.”

Swarm relies on the ‘Vennd’ function of XCP, which has in turn become it’s own separate entity that is due to launch soon. So, the company capitalises and magnifies the use of bitcoin technology, taking advantage of the new swarm-like models of information distribution engendered by decentralised network behaviour.

Fair returns

Does this new form of venture capital fundraising really apply to everyone, however? For example, does a product like Oculus Rift belong on the platform as Dietz’ implies?

He put it this way:

“The Oculus Rift raised over $2m dollars on Kickstarter and then the owner turned around and sold it to Facebook for $2bn. What did the participants in the crowdfunder get? A t-shirt?”

“With Swarm those who put in always get something out, cryptoequity can even be enforced with corporate bylaws, meaning that if Facebook then wanted to buy the product (or company) they’d need to buy out a majority of the stakeholders, Dietz said. “It’s a model that makes investing in projects like the Oculus Rift more fun and potentially more lucrative.”

swarm

Dietz explained that he wants to build an app that is “as easy to use as Tinder”, where you can flick between ‘crypto-share offerings’ in a multitude of markets, select the ones you like and buy shares quickly and easily without the hassle of dealing with stockbrokers.

The regulation issue

In light of Erik Vorhees’ recent rap on the knuckles by the SEC, there is concern over the legality of making equity offerings in crypto companies, as regulators can levy fines retroactively to punish those they consider to have breached the rules. This is despite the fact that purely crypto-based companies don’t need to hold bank accounts and, if handled properly, can reasonably be expected to operate outside of existing regulation in perpetuity.

Skype’s former COO Michael Jackson recently argued that bitcoin companies often don’t need and shouldn’t seek regulations, saying:

“If companies can make a case for themselves that they don’t need regulation, they shouldn’t even go near it.”

He further explained that Skype did not ask permission from existing Telecoms regulators to operate, because they weren’t a telecom and never claimed to be one.

“The general problem when issuing any kind of token where there is some expectation of realisable future profit is that it is possible the law will construe that as a security,” said Preston Byrne, securitization and cryptocurrency lawyer and Adam Smith Institute Fellow. “Although in certain cases where very small numbers of investors are involved this is not necessarily a problem, when dealing with large issuances to hundreds or thousands of members of the public it almost certainly is.”

“For startups and investors alike,” he continued, “crypto-securities platforms hold the potential to democratise access to capital.”

“However, they will not be adopted by businesses of any serious stature unless the contingent liability of regulatory sanction is mitigated – which, given the newness of the field, requires comprehensive pre-launch legal structuring advice.”

Could SWARM be the Tinder or the Facebook of Crowdfunding?
Could Swarm be the Tinder of crowdfunding?
Lessons learned

With this mixture of talent and features, Swarm seems very promising, but the UK Digital Currency Association’s Simon Dixon pointed out that regulations surrounding equity crowdfunding exist largely to protect consumers.

Investors should always do their own due diligence, however, he said, and with criticisms and controversy still raging around the recent record-breaking crowdsale of MaidSafe on the mastercoin platform, angel pioneers and crypto-cowboys alike are asking hard questions of themselves and their industry.

Investor David Johnston is bullish about Swarm, calling it “the future of the next generation crowdsales” and the Swarm team has been careful to take note of that lessons learned from the MaidSafe experience.


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June 19, 2014, 03:39:56 AM
 #6

Its more of a trapeze than a pyramid - as ways to get money from people for nothing its creative - ya gotta give em that !
they want to get so many bitcoins, it's too dangerous.

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June 19, 2014, 04:06:33 AM
Last edit: June 19, 2014, 06:45:17 AM by CoinHoarder
 #7

I think it is a good idea. At first I thought it was just a fancy interface for XCP, but it is much more than that. The owners of Swarm coins get equity in any coin that is crowdfunded on the Swarm network. Furthermore, they get other perks such as access to presales of future coin launches. I think it is similar to XCP/MSC/NXT in terms of asset issuance, except the fact that all swarm coin owners will get equity in every project launched on the platform.

Also, it seems they are focused on making it so easy and user-friendly that a monkey could do it, which would be an improvement I think to what's currently available. I don't really see this as a big deal though, because more user friendly interfaces will almost certainly be developed eventually for asset issuance in XCP/MSC/NXT/etc.. unless they happen to die for some reason.

IMO it is an improvement to the crowd funding capabilities of MSC/XCP/NXT, because as we saw with Maidsafe.. after the IPO the coins are dumped for BTC to fund the project, and the market takes a big hit. At least you will gain some equity in the project being crowd funded to make up for this (depending on success of the project.)

EDIT: I guess I was off on a couple points, as MSC is being integrated into Swarm, so Swarm will benefit MSC and XCP. Here is a lot of good info:

BitAngels due diligence report on SWARM (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12VLfibhGGSwy4cuHUZUG5ngEVTZoZ6_dKKqLGwhhdik/edit):


Quote
This is a live document and will be updated based on most recent information.


Due Diligence Report on SWARM

The following report is NOT intended as advice to purchase software. This report is presented for purely informational purposes. ALWAYS conduct your own due diligence before buying digital tokens associated with a software project during a crowdsale.

TLDR:
SWARM http://www.swarmcorp.com/ is an open source project to build a “distributed incubator to help people fund their ideas” by issuing digitial tokens on top of protocols such as Counter Party and the Master Protocol (potentially more in the future, SWARM is platform agnostic). The current project client is built on top of Counter Party, however SWARM have announced plans to also integrate Master Protocol in the coming months. Their crowdsale starts June 17th at 12:00 a.m. midnight U.S. central time. The team is has the full technical stack covered. This will be one of the first front end interfaces to create digital tokens (though it does have competition in Coin Powers and other efforts) and relies on the Bitcoin Protocol and Counter Party to function. The price of the tokens will rise during the period of the crowdsale based on the volume of SWARM coins that are purchased with bitcoins. See http://www.swarmcorp.com/ for details. BTC is the only currency accepted during the crowdsale.

View the SWARM Presentation and Q&A at the following link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B0Ibqr7Y2XcNNlowMzNJZjkwT0U/edit?usp=sharing

Summary
The SWARM project was founded by Joel Dietz to make issuing digital tokens as easy as the press of a button on a mobile app. The project decided to issue it own digital token in order to fuel development and acquisition of market share. The sale of these digital tokens known as SWARM begins June 17th at 12:00 a.m. midnight U.S. central as part of a crowdsale.

Crowdsale On June 17th at 12:00 midnight U.S. Central Time
A total of 100,000,000 SWARM Coins are available for sale during the crowdsale event which runs for a period of 33 days until July 20th or until the total number of SWARM Coins is sold.
The pricing of the SWARM tokens is determined based on the volume that is sold. Specifically SWARM is selling SWARM Coins at a rate of 5,250 SWARM coins per bitcoin the participant sends in. This rate of SWARM declines the more bitcoin are collected until four thousand BTC are collected and the price increases to 4,250 SWARM per bitcoin. This generation process could continue all the way until twenty one thousand bitcoin are collected and the generation rate falls to 3,750 SWARM per bitcoin.

Details found at: http://www.swarmcorp.com/

It is worth noting that the SWARM team does not expect to collect the maximum number of bitcoins by selling out all of their tokens (though it is possible if demand has been underestimated). Instead, the project has set a range of price points and is leaving it up to the market to decide the proper price of SWARM Coins. If the market decides this projects is highly valued, than the price of the coins will reach a higher level during the crowdsale. Conversely, if the market decides that this projects is not as highly valued, than the price of the coins will not rise as high during the crowdsale. Either way the pricing of these tokens is for the market to determine.

Team
The co-founders of SWARM (Joel Dietz and Jef Cavens) are both located in Berlin, Germany at the moment though both are originally from the U.S. and often reside in Palo Alto. Joel’s focus on is the back end of the application and Jef is focused on the design aspects of the application. Here I will highlights from their back grounds.

Joel Dietz (www.linkedin.com/in/joeldietz)
Educated at Brown, Joel has spent the last seven years in a variety of positions from software developer to startup entrepreneur. He has made many contributions to the Bitcoin community the past several years as part of projects ranging from Master Protocol to Ethereum. Now with a focus on Bitcoin 2.0 technologies. 

Jef Cavens (www.linkedin.com/in/thomasverhoye
Jef has spent the past 14 years in different design and creative roles in the software space. His strong design influence is felt in the presentations, application wire frames and websites that SWARM has already produced.

Economics
The utility of SWARM is based on the charging of a fee to users in order to issue their digital tokens. This fee is taken in the form of a small percentage of the digital tokens issued by the user (around 2%, subject to change) at the time they are generated. This fee is then sent to different parties. 1% of the fee to all the holders of SWARM coins. 1% to the SWARM Foundation.

While this fee provides a great deal of utility to the holders of SWARM, it also makes the protocol more vulnerable to the risk of folking and alternative versions of the project emerging that don’t charge a fee. If the market will accept this fee remains to be seen, though for perspective it is less than half of the fee that current incubators such as 500 startups and Y Combinator charge (typically 6% or more).

Technical Description
The creation of the SWARM clients is not technically difficult in the sense that they do not have to research or provide any new cryptographic proofs for the functioning of the system. Instead, the system relies on the existing Bitcoin and Counter Party for its basic functions and transfer of value.

Challenges
There are a number of existing incubators such as 500 Startups and Y Combinator, and platforms such as Angel List that offer projects an ability to raise development funding for their ideas. While today, these services are centralized and use legacy financial models, if these competitors were to begin embracing crypto currency and change their models to that of open source, they would be tough competition for SWARM. Depending on how much network size effect the SWARM project is able to gain before its competitors adopt the same or similar model will largely determine its success.

There are also new entrants into the this space including Coin Powers, which are using the Counter Party and Master Protocols in order to provide functionality very similar to that of SWARM and will be competing for similar users. Again, the speed at which the SWARM team can move developmentally and to grab market share is likely to have a dramatic impact on how successful their project is.
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June 19, 2014, 08:00:18 AM
Last edit: June 19, 2014, 08:28:29 AM by CoinHoarder
 #8

I have a feeling Swarm might fund Ethereum as a decently largish part of their portfolio. Anyone else get that feeling? I feel like that will be one of the bigger projects Swarm funds.

After thinking about it more, this seems like the best crowd funding option in the crypto world to date. Diversification in different assets is good, so I like that they set the goal really high as far as the amount of money that they are raising, so they can really spread the money around. The only thing is that it misses out on is previous IPOs, but I don't see that as a big deal. If you are interested in something that's already closed the IPO you could just buy it.

If they reach their goal, that will be a ton of money going into decentralized applications. I am really liking this idea!

I think Bitshares AGS is worth looking into as well, it is very similar to Swarm. I particularly like their keyhotee (SP) project, but there are other good ones as well. It is kind of nice with Bitshares, you can already see what projects they have going, there are many listed in their decentralized applications subforums. Although there is no reason why they couldn't also fund things like Ethereum.
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June 20, 2014, 01:52:13 AM
 #9

I have a feeling Swarm might fund Ethereum as a decently largish part of their portfolio. Anyone else get that feeling? I feel like that will be one of the bigger projects Swarm funds.

After thinking about it more, this seems like the best crowd funding option in the crypto world to date. Diversification in different assets is good, so I like that they set the goal really high as far as the amount of money that they are raising, so they can really spread the money around. The only thing is that it misses out on is previous IPOs, but I don't see that as a big deal. If you are interested in something that's already closed the IPO you could just buy it.

If they reach their goal, that will be a ton of money going into decentralized applications. I am really liking this idea!

I think Bitshares AGS is worth looking into as well, it is very similar to Swarm. I particularly like their keyhotee (SP) project, but there are other good ones as well. It is kind of nice with Bitshares, you can already see what projects they have going, there are many listed in their decentralized applications subforums. Although there is no reason why they couldn't also fund things like Ethereum.

Hey these are great points, we have an official swarm thread located here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=653568.40
Please join us
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July 01, 2014, 03:10:33 AM
 #10

I think it's a good idea, but the IPO is ridiculous and should raise some greed flags.

Kickstarter recently hit $1 Billion raised on their platform after 5 years.  But let's use that as a number for a best case scenario, and say that Swarm will do $1 Billion in funding per year when launched.

Swarm charges 2% fees, but only 1% goes to the early investors so $10,000,000 of that $1 Billion will go to swarmcoin holders.

100,000,000 swarmcoins exist, so: The early investors make $0.1/swarmcoin, and at the current rate of 5250 Swarm/BTC, if you invest 1 BTC you will only recieve $525 if the entire platform does $1 Billion.

And who knows when/if that will happen...
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July 01, 2014, 10:40:57 AM
 #11

I think it's a good idea, but the IPO is ridiculous and should raise some greed flags.
...
And who knows when/if that will happen...

As proposed on the main thread we have a plan to restrict funding.

It's worth noting that even if the distribution of coins is not a significant economic benefit the Swarm coin has other associated benefits. Since these are all fairly new things it is tricky to fit them into a spreadsheet.

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July 01, 2014, 12:53:54 PM
 #12

Can't you just crowdfund your own company on any number of platforms now? Off the top of my head there's mastercoin, counterparty, bitcoin's coloured coins, NXT asset exchange ect...

Why pay a share of equity to swarm?
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July 05, 2014, 08:17:11 PM
 #13

I think it's a good idea, but the IPO is ridiculous and should raise some greed flags.
...
And who knows when/if that will happen...

As proposed on the main thread we have a plan to restrict funding.

It's worth noting that even if the distribution of coins is not a significant economic benefit the Swarm coin has other associated benefits. Since these are all fairly new things it is tricky to fit them into a spreadsheet.

That may be true, but if you are asking for an economic investment pre-launch, those investors should be getting one hell of a reward if everything pans out like you say.  But with the current structure early investors will not see their BTC back for a while, if ever.

Also, i'm curious how you plan to making something that is illegal in most countries the new norm?
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July 05, 2014, 08:59:45 PM
 #14

I think it's a good idea, but the IPO is ridiculous and should raise some greed flags.
...
And who knows when/if that will happen...

As proposed on the main thread we have a plan to restrict funding.

It's worth noting that even if the distribution of coins is not a significant economic benefit the Swarm coin has other associated benefits. Since these are all fairly new things it is tricky to fit them into a spreadsheet.

Great idea giving us the option to vote on it, thanks!  Cheesy

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July 05, 2014, 10:27:47 PM
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Also, i'm curious how you plan to making something that is illegal in most countries the new norm?

Swarm legal plan is now available.

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July 05, 2014, 10:28:43 PM
 #16

Swaarscam
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August 12, 2014, 09:10:22 AM
 #17

Any news or does anybody know a forum/ topic about? Or is this a scam?

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