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Author Topic: Unions Explained  (Read 2944 times)
Jon
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February 23, 2012, 04:23:03 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=LEhHD5iXzDg

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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February 23, 2012, 04:59:18 AM
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Just a few minor quirks about this:

* If you have no problems with monopolies, you should have no problems with private sector unions. All they are are human resource companies that sell resources innthe same way that any other company would. The resources in this case being labor. One thing against them though is that they can sometimes bully other business and employees, which SHOULD be treated as unfair business practices or racketeering, but sadly isn't. Either way, unions still fit into the free market ideal.

* Government employees getting paid higher salaries is not true. On average government employees earn higher salaries than private sector, but that's because ALL government positions are professional white collar type, like accounting, research, management, etc. All jobs like cafeteria work, cleaning, custodial, etc have been outsourced by government to local business. And the average of private sector jobs includes those low level blue collar jobs. So in essence, the statistics that show government workers make more than private sector are comparing group consisting mainly of office professionals to a group that's full of McDonald's and Wal-Mart workers. If you compare private office workers to government office workers, the salaries are about the same, and many government jobs actually pay less. At my current job, the top salary for my profession is maybe half of what I can get in the private sector (I'll start looking soon as I'm done with my MBA). Caveat:I do believe fully that on average private sector employees work much more and harder than public sector employees, since public sector atmosphere is more relaxed, and it's harder to get fired. In that sense, public sector employees get paid more for the work produced than private sector ones.

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February 23, 2012, 09:59:37 AM
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Atlas does your dad work for the Heritage Foundation?

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February 27, 2012, 05:02:43 AM
 #4

The biggest problem with unions is not the collective bargaining for salaries.   It is the imposition of rules regulating the hiring and mostly firing of employees.  They make employers (public and private) keep dead weight, unresponsive employees that know they do not have to push hard and can not be fired even for some pretty major infractions.

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February 27, 2012, 05:24:59 AM
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To extrapolate from that, the biggest problem with unions is that there is no competition between unions. A business can chose its suppliers and vendors, but it can't chose its labor suppliers.

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February 27, 2012, 03:39:53 PM
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Before Unions the laborers were like slaves...
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February 27, 2012, 04:11:32 PM
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Before Unions the laborers were like slaves...

Well that's precisely why unions are hated by libertarians now.  Not everyone accepts that a prosperous working class is a good thing.

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February 27, 2012, 04:16:27 PM
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Before Unions the not all laborers were like slaves...

You could argue that current fast food employees are like slaves right now. People with valuable skills who are in short supply were never treated as slaves. People who's job it was to just move things around without thinking, were quite literally a dime a dozen. Their option was to either get more professional skills/education, or to form a union and create artificial labor scarcity. Unions are basically labor hoarders.

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February 27, 2012, 04:18:26 PM
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Before Unions the laborers were like slaves...

Well that's precisely why the are hated by libertarians now.  Not everyone accepts that a prosperous working class is a good thing.  The OP has said in another thread that US workers should be reduced to the status of $10 a week Indian wages slaves.

Everyone should get rewarded proportional to their skillset,
and not proportional to their ability to join a gang of thugs
that's large enough to threaten others.

The first system is called a meritocracy.
The second a mob rule.
 

That depends.  If one person simply has more economic power than another as a result of random chance or crony capitalism, that isn't meritocracy. 

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February 27, 2012, 04:37:18 PM
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Before Unions the laborers were like slaves...

Well that's precisely why the are hated by libertarians now.  Not everyone accepts that a prosperous working class is a good thing.  The OP has said in another thread that US workers should be reduced to the status of $10 a week Indian wages slaves.

Everyone should get rewarded proportional to their skillset,
and not proportional to their ability to join a gang of thugs
that's large enough to threaten others.

The first system is called a meritocracy.
The second a mob rule.
 

That depends.  If one person simply has more economic power than another as a result of random chance or crony capitalism, that isn't meritocracy.  

Agree on cronyism, but it's an orthogonal problem to unions.

Disagree on random chance: statistically, it averages out over time,
e.g. lottery winners never amount to much in terms of impact on society.


Sorry you are wrong.  William the Conqueror distributed the wealth in England in 1066.  Its almost 1000 years later and the same families are still a large part of the upper class here.  And the US has lower social mobility than Europe so whether or not you are rich is a random factor of whether or not you are born into a rich family.

EDIT: to make clear, the reason this matters is that a meritocracy is a great alternative to unions where everyone starts off with an equal chance to be the boss.  But if its random, then there is no value in allowing the random lucky guy to screw the rest.


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February 27, 2012, 05:04:18 PM
 #11

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association. 

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February 27, 2012, 05:07:06 PM
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Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association. 

They are thugs when they corrupt the taxpayer's only means of negotiation. The main discussion point of the video was public-sector unions.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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February 27, 2012, 05:11:44 PM
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Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.  

They are thugs when they corrupt the taxpayer's only means of negotiation. The main discussion point of the video was public-sector unions.

Well, that's a problem with democracy, not with unions.  (same thing with corporations)

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February 27, 2012, 05:19:42 PM
 #14

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.  

They are thugs when they corrupt the taxpayer's only means of negotiation. The main discussion point of the video was public-sector unions.

Well, that's a problem with democracy, not with unions.  (same thing with corporations)
I am glad we can agree.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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February 27, 2012, 05:48:40 PM
 #15

Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.  

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

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February 27, 2012, 05:58:14 PM
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Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.  

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

This, in my neck of the woods, is called 'racketeering'


It's legal if it's a government union apparently. Your only option for not paying dues is to fill a form claiming religious objection, at which point you will be required to make an equivalent donation to a public charity of your choice, and provide them with monthly proof that you are paying. If you don't, they will start charging you automatically again. I wanted to do that and donate the forced money to Ayn Rand Institute, but I could never find that form.

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February 27, 2012, 06:14:19 PM
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Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.  

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

This, in my neck of the woods, is called 'racketeering'


It's legal if it's a government union apparently. Your only option for not paying dues is to fill a form claiming religious objection, at which point you will be required to make an equivalent donation to a public charity of your choice, and provide them with monthly proof that you are paying. If you don't, they will start charging you automatically again. I wanted to do that and donate the forced money to Ayn Rand Institute, but I could never find that form.

Unions get better wages and pensions for their members.  You are getting the benefit of that.  I can't believe you are complaining about not being allowed to freeload.   

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February 27, 2012, 06:29:18 PM
 #18

Unions get better wages and pensions for their members.  You are getting the benefit of that.  I can't believe you are complaining about not being allowed to freeload.   

I'm not convinced that some of the people we have working here deserve a union protected job, let alone better wages and pensions. I'm also not entirely sure why the hell they need $24 a month from every employee, either, if the basic idea is just to organize and have a representative.

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February 27, 2012, 06:31:24 PM
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Unions are voluntary associations, and you can't disparage them for being "thugs" just because they are exercising their right to free association.  

That's BS. Just last year my union made it so that everyone working where I work has to be a member, and has to pay monthly dues (I, obviously, did not want to be a member). They are taken out of our paychecks before we even see the money. If you want to work here, you have no choice but to be a part of the union.

This, in my neck of the woods, is called 'racketeering'


It's legal if it's a government union apparently. Your only option for not paying dues is to fill a form claiming religious objection, at which point you will be required to make an equivalent donation to a public charity of your choice, and provide them with monthly proof that you are paying. If you don't, they will start charging you automatically again. I wanted to do that and donate the forced money to Ayn Rand Institute, but I could never find that form.

Unions get better wages and pensions for their members.  You are getting the benefit of that.  I can't believe you are complaining about not being allowed to freeload.   

So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

Should I be forced to pay dues to my caveman forefathers for inventing fire as well?

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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February 27, 2012, 06:37:59 PM
 #20

...snip...
So organized labor forces and its respective dues can't be voluntary if the whole industry benefits from their work?

...snip...

Of course it can't be voluntary.  The whole idea of a union is that its 100% of the workers and if the employer is free to replace the unionised workers, there won't be a union.


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