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Author Topic: {ANNOUNCEMENT} WBX Exchange Frozen  (Read 39364 times)
brendio
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April 17, 2012, 06:14:33 AM
 #101

EDIT: Dooglus beat me to it.

For $18, you can get a copy of the last change of registered address form submitted to ASIC. It's from 2009 though, so probably still have the Victorian address, rather than the Gold Coast one.

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brendio
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April 17, 2012, 06:16:07 AM
 #102

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ABN details
Entity name:   HIGH NET WORTH PROPERTY PTY. LTD.
ABN status:   Active from 30 Jun 2008
Entity type:   Australian Private Company
Goods & Services Tax (GST):   Not currently registered for GST
Main business location:   VIC 3777

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April 17, 2012, 12:51:15 PM
 #103

Probably best not to crucify the exchange operator. From the looks of things the site fell victim to scammers that transfered money from phished Australian bank accounts and used that money to buy bitcoins.

Obviously account verification should have been introduced much earlier but that is not infallible as accounts could still be verified with stolen identities.

While I sympathize with people who have lost money you probably should have seen this coming. He had to change banks accounts several times because of these problems and Mtgox faced the same issues with their technocash account when they stupidly allowed direct bank transfers.

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April 17, 2012, 05:52:32 PM
 #104

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Probably best not to crucify the exchange operator. From the looks of things the site fell victim to scammers that transfered money from phished Australian bank accounts and used that money to buy bitcoins.

Why the fuck not he's the one that started playing ponzi style games with customer deposits trying to cover up his own incompetence?

Quote
Obviously account verification should have been introduced much earlier but that is not infallible as accounts could still be verified with stolen identities.

Still making that the owners responsibility, which atm he seems to be trying to shirk out of.

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April 17, 2012, 07:35:25 PM
 #105

It's bullshit when people jump on a bitcoin site operator whenever they are getting pushed around by the banks.

The exchange operator gets scammed, and people blame the victim? You have to wonder if the people complaining are the same ones who used the phished bank accounts.

I mean, if I was part of the established banking system, I would use phished bank accounts myself just so that I could reverse the charges later and screw over the exchange, then I would get on here and bad mouth the exchange operator.

The issue at the heart of the matter is the same as its been from the beginning: How do you reconcile non reversible BTC payments with reversible fiat bullshit controlled by TPTB??

SOLUTION: If you start such an exchange, run your bank accounts as dry as possible. Withdraw extra funds and trade a portion of it to gold (pecunix accounts?). Have as many possible accounts under different names and corporations as you can. Don't let the banks know that the different accounts are all yours.

Bottom line is, if you're going to succeed as an exchange that trades with bank deposit money, you're either going to have to completely sell out to their rules, or go to great lengths to fool them.

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April 17, 2012, 09:15:32 PM
 #106

It's bullshit when people jump on a bitcoin site operator whenever they are getting pushed around by the banks.
"Getting pushed around by the banks" might explain a lost payment or two or the temporary inability to process payments. It doesn't explain losing client funds.

Quote
The exchange operator gets scammed, and people blame the victim?
Nobody blaming the operator for getting scammed, as far as I know. They're blaming the operator for losing client funds. The operator's primary responsibility is to secure client funds so that they don't get scammed. When it comes to client funds, an exchange operator is the security guard. You certainly do blame the guard if the thing he's guarding is stolen.

Quote
You have to wonder if the people complaining are the same ones who used the phished bank accounts.
I can't imagine why any rational person would wonder that. When a person makes an argument, I wonder whether the argument is sensible or not. To answer that, I reason out the logic behind it. It really doesn't matter whether the argument is made by a good person or a bad person when you're considering the validity of the argument. Usually such vague accusations with no evidence are used to distract people from a logical argument.

Quote
I mean, if I was part of the established banking system, I would use phished bank accounts myself just so that I could reverse the charges later and screw over the exchange, then I would get on here and bad mouth the exchange operator.
Okay, so you're a bad person.

Quote
The issue at the heart of the matter is the same as its been from the beginning: How do you reconcile non reversible BTC payments with reversible fiat bullshit controlled by TPTB??
Simple. You pay an exchange a high fee to take that risk for you and you rely on them to have sufficient reserves to protect client funds. That's their job.

Quote
SOLUTION: If you start such an exchange, run your bank accounts as dry as possible. Withdraw extra funds and trade a portion of it to gold (pecunix accounts?). Have as many possible accounts under different names and corporations as you can. Don't let the banks know that the different accounts are all yours.
I think that's a very bad strategy for reasons I've detailed elsewhere. Implementing strategies that hinder reporting or obscure connections are good ways to get yourself in trouble very quickly. But you are definitely right that you have to have "hot" and "cold" means of storing cash just as you do coins, so that interruptions in your operational accounts don't affect client funds you hold. It helps to be totally up front with the banks, actually.

Quote
Bottom line is, if you're going to succeed as an exchange that trades with bank deposit money, you're either going to have to completely sell out to their rules, or go to great lengths to fool them.
The former is the much more sensible strategy. In any event, the reason you get paid such high fees is because it's hard to protect client funds -- but that's your primary responsibility.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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April 18, 2012, 12:17:28 AM
 #107

It's bullshit when people jump on a bitcoin site operator whenever they are getting pushed around by the banks.

The exchange operator gets scammed, and people blame the victim? You have to wonder if the people complaining are the same ones who used the phished bank accounts.

I mean, if I was part of the established banking system, I would use phished bank accounts myself just so that I could reverse the charges later and screw over the exchange, then I would get on here and bad mouth the exchange operator.

The issue at the heart of the matter is the same as its been from the beginning: How do you reconcile non reversible BTC payments with reversible fiat bullshit controlled by TPTB??

SOLUTION: If you start such an exchange, run your bank accounts as dry as possible. Withdraw extra funds and trade a portion of it to gold (pecunix accounts?). Have as many possible accounts under different names and corporations as you can. Don't let the banks know that the different accounts are all yours.

Bottom line is, if you're going to succeed as an exchange that trades with bank deposit money, you're either going to have to completely sell out to their rules, or go to great lengths to fool them.



NO.


Andre, the "site operator" in light of the scams could have this situation resolved. Instead he has taken and refused to return the hard earned funds of all of his remaining clients. Its been months with little/no contact and what could essentially be misinformation.

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April 18, 2012, 12:51:53 AM
 #108

It's bullshit when people jump on a bitcoin site operator whenever they are getting pushed around by the banks.

The exchange operator gets scammed, and people blame the victim? You have to wonder if the people complaining are the same ones who used the phished bank accounts.

I mean, if I was part of the established banking system, I would use phished bank accounts myself just so that I could reverse the charges later and screw over the exchange, then I would get on here and bad mouth the exchange operator.

The issue at the heart of the matter is the same as its been from the beginning: How do you reconcile non reversible BTC payments with reversible fiat bullshit controlled by TPTB??

SOLUTION: If you start such an exchange, run your bank accounts as dry as possible. Withdraw extra funds and trade a portion of it to gold (pecunix accounts?). Have as many possible accounts under different names and corporations as you can. Don't let the banks know that the different accounts are all yours.

Bottom line is, if you're going to succeed as an exchange that trades with bank deposit money, you're either going to have to completely sell out to their rules, or go to great lengths to fool them.



Your post is not particularly useful.

I do not use stolen bank accounts.  My funds were not actually being used for trading and were caught between a deposit/withdrawal cycle - nothing to do with non-reversible BTC payments.  I am prepared to take the issue further with the Australian authorities because I'm not keen to lose $3k and as it was all clearly AUD denominated it's a simple complaint to spell out WBX was holding my AUD and failed to release it.  My transactions record that in a very straight forward manner.
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April 18, 2012, 01:38:13 AM
 #109

+1
repentance
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April 18, 2012, 06:45:31 AM
 #110

EDIT: Dooglus beat me to it.

For $18, you can get a copy of the last change of registered address form submitted to ASIC. It's from 2009 though, so probably still have the Victorian address, rather than the Gold Coast one.

The address was never updated.  I looked up the registration when it was still in strike-off status before ASIC deregistered the company.  And of course "Gold Coast" is not an address.

The lack of proper contact details and the lack of GST registration is what made me suspicious of the company late last year.  They should have had a licence for the activities which Andre claimed the company was engaged in prior to opening WBX.  They should also have been turning over more than $70,000 pa for those financial years and therefore registered for GST.

There is absolutely no good reason for Andre not to have provided the name of either an accountant or a lawyer to WBX users by now and there's no guarantee that he' that is still in Queensland or even Australia.

I'd be interested to learn who the other director/s of High Net Worth Property were - I believe this information can be obtained from ASIC for a fee.  I don't believe the story as told by Andre.  He was aware of the strike-off action and did nothing to stop the company being de-registered which suggests that there were problems long before he claims to have been screwed around by the banks.

I doubt Fair Trading Qld can do a whole lot to recover money with the scant contact details available, but if enough people lodge complaints they may do an investigation or at least advise what other options for redress are available.  I'm also not sure how people will go with serving a summons without an address.  There don't appear to be any public records for Andre as a sole trader, and although the big guys like the ATO use the last address registered with ASIC when serving legal notices, only the deregistered company seems to have been listed with ASIC and it's Andre the individual people are looking at taking legal action against now - at law, they're separate entities so service could be a problem.

The Qld Fair Trading complaint form is a simple one, so it's probably the best starting point.  I'd definitely put the historical information about the company being de-registered by ASIC in the complaint. 

Of course, before you can take action against someone, you first have to locate them.  Good luck with that.

At the moment, Andre isn't listed on ASIC's banned or disqualified persons register, which leaves him free to register another company.  There are certainly a number of things people can do to fuck up his shit if he doesn't start being responsive soon.  It might also be worth doing a search of the National Personal Insolvency Index to see whether Andre has recently filed for bankruptcy/had bankruptcy action taken against him.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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April 18, 2012, 07:51:35 AM
 #111

Contact info

Call: +617 3102-9666

Gold Coast
Hmmm. The phone number is a Brisbane number, not Gold Coast.

Search for "High Net Worth Property" comes up with

http://www.business.com.au/high-net-worth-property-pty-ltd-/

Quote
High Net Worth Property Pty. . Ltd.

20 Fauna Ave, Badger Creek VIC 3777

Obviously not updated since the move north, but it could be a start for investigations.

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April 18, 2012, 07:52:54 AM
 #112

https://creditorwatch.com.au/express/asic/organisation/131700779

For $30, we might be able to get his birth date.

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April 18, 2012, 09:05:21 AM
 #113

well, even if we dont have his personal details, the bank has Smiley
Does anyone still have his bank account details for his priavte account and received some money from it? If so - could you please post the details here?
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April 18, 2012, 12:25:57 PM
 #114

I dig some digging around ...

ASIC Gazette advising of company deregistration: http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/pdflib.nsf/LookupByFileName/A081_11.pdf/$file/A081_11.pdf

Social Media:

Linked In: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gorkalitus
FB: https://www.hs.facebook.com/gorkalitus
Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/gorkalitus
Google: https://plus.google.com/118402445473214777477/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/gorkalitus
Wordpress: http://gorkalitus.wordpress.com/

His common nickname, gorkalitus, used to have a website (also listed on his LinkedIn profile), gorkalitus.com. It's no longer there, but here's an old snapshot: http://web.archive.org/web/20110203093148/http://www.gorkalitus.com/

It also still has an FB page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Gorkalitus/313640667659

He has a Yahoo Questions account (http://answers.yahoo.com/activity?show=V8DvbOgFaa), in which he has asked questions about his daughter being injured at day care and what to do about not being able to pay the mortgage on his house in Victoria!! (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AslIquUYUaC9sWZEU0pHK_nsy6IX;_ylv=3?qid=20110522042232AA5bkZuShocked

There is a photo here (https://www.hs.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=106283996057507&set=a.103987846287122.7771.100000277203901&type=3&theater) on FB of a website mock up with an address matching the previously registered company address.

He made a tweet (https://twitter.com/#!/gorkalitus/status/85342350313918464) about a fan page for a Kiwi Food online store. (It links here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Kiwi-Shack/115106271912363#.TgiI0Tx5Abg.twitter). It appears to be run by Andre's wife (https://www.hs.facebook.com/marieannyork?sk=info) at an address: Eagleby, Eagleby, QLD 4207. Phone number: (07)38076011. His wife also appears to work at Makarni Colour Studio, 16 Main St Beenleigh, which is close by Eagleby and has the same phone number as listed the Kiwi Store (https://www.hs.facebook.com/MakarniColourStudio).

This research is getting addictive ...

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April 18, 2012, 01:50:05 PM
 #115

WOW man amazing!
Thanks for all the great research.

Can people grab screen grabs. I cant at the moment


Here is a picture of him on his facebook
http://www.hs.facebook.com/gorkalitus?sk=photos
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April 18, 2012, 02:14:17 PM
 #116

WOW man amazing!
Thanks for all the great research.

Can people grab screen grabs. I cant at the moment


Here is a picture of him on his facebook
http://www.hs.facebook.com/gorkalitus?sk=photos

Thanks. Tip welcome: 1TipMEDeqWT1VUmmhH3rmkVrkA4KYRk2C  Wink

I've also been looking into the procedures for complaints to the Office of Fair Trading and filing claims with QCAT. Claims to QCAT cost $95 for dispute amounts from $1,000 to $10,000. My amount is just over $1,000. I'm not sure if you can group claims, but the maximum claim they deal with is $25,000. Claims over $3,000 are referred to mediation first. To achieve economy of scale, I will point out again that I am willing to buy WBX debt. Contact me or look for my other thread on it for details.

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April 18, 2012, 11:58:27 PM
 #117

Thanks. Tip welcome: 1TipMEDeqWT1VUmmhH3rmkVrkA4KYRk2C  Wink

I've also been looking into the procedures for complaints to the Office of Fair Trading and filing claims with QCAT. Claims to QCAT cost $95 for dispute amounts from $1,000 to $10,000. My amount is just over $1,000. I'm not sure if you can group claims, but the maximum claim they deal with is $25,000. Claims over $3,000 are referred to mediation first. To achieve economy of scale, I will point out again that I am willing to buy WBX debt. Contact me or look for my other thread on it for details.

Hats off to you brendio.

Great work. A generous tip will be on its way to you when I get home.

I was about to file a case at the office of fair trading: http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/online-complaint-form.htm

Would it be better to file one at QCAT?

Can you point me to the details of buying WBX debt. I'm interested as I'm fairly busy, however I'm still happy to go ahead and file an independent claim, if I go down this route, happy to work with you. My claim amount is substantial.

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April 19, 2012, 12:13:34 AM
 #118

well, even if we dont have his personal details, the bank has Smiley
Does anyone still have his bank account details for his priavte account and received some money from it? If so - could you please post the details here?

The bank won't disclose those details over small claims stuff - it takes a pretty heavy duty court order for them to divulge information about their customers.  The account details would help with getting a point in time garnishee order against the bank account after obtaining judgement, but anyone with an ounce of sense would either close the account or leave no money in it.  It used to be possible to take a scattergun approach to garnishee orders and send them to the big 4 banks in the area where the person lived or worked but online banking makes it much harder to locate a bank account that way and you need to get the identifying information right anyway (you'd need DOB or TFN plus the right account name).

It should be possible to test whether the account is actually frozen by going to a branch and trying to make a small deposit to the account.  If it's actually frozen, it shouldn't be possible to deposit into the account.

Quote
I was about to file a case at the office of fair trading: http://www.fairtrading.qld.gov.au/online-complaint-form.htm

Would it be better to file one at QCAT?

Do both.  QCAT is Qld Fair Trading's small claims tribunal and you need to go through them to get a judgement against Andre which can then be used to pursue bankruptcy proceedings or take other recovery/enforcement action (different creditors can combine to force bankruptcy as long as the total owed exceeds $5000).  Fair Trading tries to mediate disputes and will investigate a business if they receive enough complaints about their unfair business practises - they may be able to find out what is really going on with WBX, but I wouldn't count on it.  What they may do is suggest a more appropriate agency for people to contact regarding WBX.

As Andre couldn't afford the mortgage payments on the Victorian house 11 months ago, I wouldn't hold out much hope of him having much in the way of assets which can be liquidated to satisfy any judgements or claims in bankruptcy against him.  I'm still not convinced that the other directors of HNWP are beyond reach.  Although the company has been de-registered, it doesn't appear to have been wound up and at least some clients of WBX may be entitled to some payment during the winding up process.  While the company probably had no assets at the time it was deregistered, the actions of the directors prior to the deregistration influence whether they have any personal liability for money owed by the company.

Andre's comments on the Kiwi Shack FB page make it clear that he's involved with the business too, not just his wife.

All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.
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April 19, 2012, 01:08:37 AM
 #119

Do we have any evidence that High Net Worth Property Pty Ltd has/had anything to do with Andre?

I've not been able to find an official list of the company directors.

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April 19, 2012, 01:25:35 AM
 #120

Do we have any evidence that High Net Worth Property Pty Ltd has/had anything to do with Andre?

I've not been able to find an official list of the company directors.

You'd be able to get the ASIC extract if you are prepared to fork out the fee for it.

Dooglus, are you able to provide records to substantiate account balances should this go to court? I have screenshots, but given that these can be photoshopped, it would be good to have more substantial evidence. Also, I am looking into buying other peoples debt so that it justifies the cost of pursuing legal action. I need to make sure that I can collect on debt obtain through voucher transfer subsequent to the halting of trading. Again, I am keeping screenshots, but the definite record of this is run by WBX.

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