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Question: Has anything you've read here or on the Neighbourhood Pool Watch blog changed your mining habits for the better?
Yes
No
I don't mine

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Author Topic: Neighbourhood Pool Watch  (Read 47527 times)
organofcorti
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March 18, 2012, 05:42:59 AM
 #101

New poll started. To complement the last one, this time it's: which pool do you trust the least?

add pool.itzod.ru

...and done.

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organofcorti
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March 18, 2012, 09:08:40 AM
 #102

like the new pool, wonder why the only other voter does not trust slush, hmmm

Wasn't me. I forgot to vote after I posted the poll. I think it's pretty obvious which at least one of the pools I voted for was. Not Slush.

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organofcorti
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March 18, 2012, 10:35:27 AM
 #103

Currently prop with delayed stats. I think they're changing to pplns soon, or may have already. If you're asking about how to hop them .... well, there's another thread for that.

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kano
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March 18, 2012, 12:23:28 PM
 #104

Hmm - simplecoin.us still mines also (their last block was ... 171650)
I only know that coz they have their name in the coinbase Smiley

(at the moment there's 10 pools I can tell from looking at the block in the last 100 blocks - accounting for 68% of the 100)

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DeepBit
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March 18, 2012, 04:28:25 PM
 #105

Actually I think they vote against Eligius for taking down the Springcoin.

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March 18, 2012, 09:56:16 PM
 #106

I guess you guys are right. His attitude lends to misbehavior of his pool. Based on past performance it’s better to not trust his pool at all.

Edit: I wish the people who voted down pools like p2pool and Ozcoin would speak up. I can see no reason for voting them down at all.
Actually - both of those pools are in direct contrast of trust.
P2Pool people say that you can't trust normal pools - so at least someone somewhere will probably say they don't trust each normal pool.
P2Pool, on the other hard, takes a 0.5% fee that most people don't realise until someone points it out to them and they can change it to zero - so there would certainly be a lack of trust by some due to that also.

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March 19, 2012, 12:59:52 AM
 #107

...
I’ve never used p2pool so I had no idea it has a built in fee. Now, is that fee advertised somewhere or do you need to accidentally discover it in a setting and go out of your way to change it?

It's an option listed in the middle of the docs with all the other options.
Read if you are interested Smiley
That gives you a chance to decide if you think it is visible enough or not Cheesy

Edit: hmm it's now 4 for P2Pool - maybe 4 people didn't realise it - or there are 4 other reasons?

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March 19, 2012, 01:22:06 AM
 #108

...
I’ve never used p2pool so I had no idea it has a built in fee. Now, is that fee advertised somewhere or do you need to accidentally discover it in a setting and go out of your way to change it?

It's a very small fee by default (0.5%), and you can always set it to 0 with "--give-author 0"

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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March 19, 2012, 04:40:01 AM
 #109

...
I’ve never used p2pool so I had no idea it has a built in fee. Now, is that fee advertised somewhere or do you need to accidentally discover it in a setting and go out of your way to change it?

It's an option listed in the middle of the docs with all the other options.
Read if you are interested Smiley
That gives you a chance to decide if you think it is visible enough or not Cheesy

Edit: hmm it's now 4 for P2Pool - maybe 4 people didn't realise it - or there are 4 other reasons?
Middle of the docs? Who's going to read docs to join a mine? If I was joining a mine, I would expect the "fee" to be listed in the first post of the pool thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg231846#msg231846

Hmm. Nothing about it there. How about in the guide to setup p2pool?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=18313.msg712967#msg712967

Nah, still nothing.

Oh wait, I remember seeing a link to a wiki. It must be there:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/P2Pool

I scan the page down till I get to the heading beginning with Donating... thinking I hit the jackpot, but no. Surely something as important as a built-in fee in a pool that claims to be fee-free should be mentioned in a paragraph that talks about the reasoning behind it? Alas, I finally spot it hidden in the command line options, where very few people will ever notice, especially if they just follow the guides.

You guys are exploiting people much the same way that companies will exploit customers who buy products with rebates. They expect that a certain percentage won't know about the rebate, will forget about the rebate, or won't fill it out correctly. You're also taking advantage of people's inclination to do nothing when faced with a tough decision and hence take the default option. While it isn't truly hidden and has been talked about several times on here (with each time p2pool users surfacing saying that they never heard of it), anything less than front and center IS hidden when it comes to a fee, ESPECIALLY when one of your primary raison d'etre is no fees! You can claim that people should know about it and how to stop it. That the donation is worthy. That it is good intentioned. None of that matters.

There are only two options if you want to have an honest, reputable pool (which we all want). Advertise the built-in donation loudly and boldly, or make it opt-in rather than opt-out.
organofcorti
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March 19, 2012, 06:49:55 AM
 #110

I guess you guys are right. His attitude lends to misbehavior of his pool. Based on past performance it’s better to not trust his pool at all.

Edit: I wish the people who voted down pools like p2pool and Ozcoin would speak up. I can see no reason for voting them down at all.
Actually - both of those pools are in direct contrast of trust.
P2Pool people say that you can't trust normal pools - so at least someone somewhere will probably say they don't trust each normal pool.
P2Pool, on the other hard, takes a 0.5% fee that most people don't realise until someone points it out to them and they can change it to zero - so there would certainly be a lack of trust by some due to that also.

Kano, can you tell me why you think Ozcoin is "in direct contrast of trust"? It's one of the few pools I have trust in, so I'd like to hear an opposing view point.

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March 19, 2012, 01:46:25 PM
 #111

Kano, can you tell me why you think Ozcoin is "in direct contrast of trust"? It's one of the few pools I have trust in, so I'd like to hear an opposing view point.
I think he just means the literal definition of a pool, as such, and therefore all pools apply. If I am wrong, I would also like to hear an answer to this. Graeme runs an excellent pool.

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March 19, 2012, 05:00:19 PM
 #112

As I've said, I thought this was obvious. People should be auditing the P2Pool code before using it! Now they can't even be bothered to read the wiki?  Cry
I just want to let this sink in for a bit. You are one of the big proponents of p2pool. You would have everyone use it rather than other pools. And now you think that everyone should be auditing the code of p2pool before using it? So everyone who mines bitcoin (and any other cryptocoin that uses p2pool) should 1) have the programming ability to read and analyze the code and 2) the time to do so? Just think about that for a bit and tell me if you think that is a reasonable request.
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March 19, 2012, 05:29:50 PM
 #113

As I've said, I thought this was obvious. People should be auditing the P2Pool code before using it! Now they can't even be bothered to read the wiki?  Cry

I just want to let this sink in for a bit. You are one of the big proponents of p2pool. You would have everyone use it rather than other pools. And now you think that everyone should be auditing the code of p2pool before using it? So everyone who mines bitcoin (and any other cryptocoin that uses p2pool) should 1) have the programming ability to read and analyze the code and 2) the time to do so? Just think about that for a bit and tell me if you think that is a reasonable request.

I don't need to think about it. People need to be responsible for their actions. That's the entire reason I am a proponent for P2Pool. You are responsible for the blocks you create.

Let's say Gavin suddenly decides that Bitcoin is not going where he thinks it should and makes some major changes in the next client update. Do you think people should just update to the new client without auditing the code? Does it matter if you know how to audit the Bitcoin client code or not? Does it matter if you have the time or not?

People with the ability and time to audit the code will. And they will make forum posts, wiki entries, et cetera for those who can't.

My point was, you should audit the code before using it. If you can't, at least do some simple research like reading the wiki.
If you really think like that and are absolutely certain, then you should remove your p2pool guide. If someone is reading the code and studying the wiki, they won't need the guide. Guides are for people who don't do those things. In fact, your guide is enabling people to use p2pool that apparently shouldn't be. Don't be an enabler.
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March 19, 2012, 07:41:00 PM
 #114

I quit giving funds because of the .5% hidden fee Sad    Project #2 was going to give 10% of the income to p2pool but I don't know now. I need to take some time and review it. I think this is a black make on p2pool Sad

I like giving donations, I don't like hidden fees Sad  How can I support something where people get money taken from then and not know it:(

I am the only one who feels like throwing up when reading this?

On one hand, we have ForrestV, who actually built something himself, from the ground up. Something thats incredibly innovative, (very) valuable to bitcoin and the community at large. Something that is open and opensource.

No secrets, no lies.

OTOH, we have a clueless Goat who has never done anything himself, but leaches off everyone else and thrives through secrecy and deceit. A goat that runs a mining business owned by his shareholders who are not being told where his farm is mining, who are not being told how much is truly being earned from pool hopping, who are not being told anything but who are paid dividends based only on fabricated numbers that dont come close to reflecting actual pool hopping profits.

That same Goat now cries foul because someone ignorant may not read the readme and therefore unwittingly donate  a small amount to someone deserving, yet he runs a hopping proxy, developed by people with the skills he lacks, a proxy that robs the poor and ignorant miners of prop pools from far more than 0.5%, yet he makes zero effort to educate those miners or protect them from their far larger losses because he pockets them, and not Forrestv.

So that hypocrite is now going to pretend being the miners advocate, judging what an honest (and optional) donation fee is for ForrestV's hard work, most (or all?) of which is redistributed among the miners?


kano
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March 20, 2012, 03:44:48 AM
 #115

Kano, can you tell me why you think Ozcoin is "in direct contrast of trust"? It's one of the few pools I have trust in, so I'd like to hear an opposing view point.
I think he just means the literal definition of a pool, as such, and therefore all pools apply. If I am wrong, I would also like to hear an answer to this. Graeme runs an excellent pool.
I was simply referring to the issue that MANY P2Pool acolytes say that normal pools are untrustworthy thus you should use P2Pool
So in that respect, P2Pool is in opposition to Ozcoin when it comes to trust.

I trust Ozcoin and Graeme probably more than any other pool around.
(I'm even mining on Ozcoin at the moment and have been 100% for the past 6 days)

Aside: The early on P2Pool evangelism turned me off P2Pool, so for myself it's unlikely I'll use P2Pool in the near future (and I have brought up reasons on the forum also - e.g. other issues relate to having no technical documentation, and IMO a lack of reliability and stability - also the 'accepted stales' issues I've brought up elsewhere)

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March 20, 2012, 03:48:32 AM
 #116

...
OTOH, we have a clueless Goat who has never done anything himself, but leaches off everyone else and thrives through secrecy and deceit. A goat that runs a mining business owned by his shareholders who are not being told where his farm is mining, who are not being told how much is truly being earned from pool hopping, who are not being told anything but who are paid dividends based only on fabricated numbers that dont come close to reflecting actual pool hopping profits.

That same Goat now cries foul because someone ignorant may not read the readme and therefore unwittingly donate  a small amount to someone deserving, yet he runs a hopping proxy, developed by people with the skills he lacks, a proxy that robs the poor and ignorant miners of prop pools from far more than 0.5%, yet he makes zero effort to educate those miners or protect them from their far larger losses because he pockets them, and not Forrestv.
...
I don't see how declaring someone else 'bad' makes you or P2Pool seem better.
It actually reflects poorly on both yourself and P2Pool that you need to use such a comparison.

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March 20, 2012, 04:41:59 AM
 #117

It actually reflects poorly on both yourself and P2Pool that you need to use such a comparison.

You would let someone's diatribe against someone they've had a history with affect your judgement on the merits of the mining pool they happen to use?

That's a strange way to pick a Bitcoin mining pool.
No.

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March 20, 2012, 04:47:06 AM
 #118

It actually reflects poorly on both yourself and P2Pool that you need to use such a comparison.

You would let someone's diatribe against someone they've had a history with affect your judgement on the merits of the mining pool they happen to use?

That's a strange way to pick a Bitcoin mining pool.
No.

Then how do his word reflect poorly on P2Pool?
Do I need to explain the English?
If English is not your first language I'll go to the trouble.

Otherwise - try reading it from the position of someone not enraptured with P2Pool Smiley

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March 20, 2012, 02:58:52 PM
 #119

Hey so who are the six that don't trust EMC?  I'd certainly like to address any issues with that, as I try to be as open as possible with everything I do with regards to the pool.  If there's something that is questionable, I will certainly address it.

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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March 20, 2012, 10:31:41 PM
 #120

Hey so who are the six that don't trust EMC?  I'd certainly like to address any issues with that, as I try to be as open as possible with everything I do with regards to the pool.  If there's something that is questionable, I will certainly address it.
Also, realise, as I mentioned further up and you can read elsewhere on the forum, P2Pools advocacy of saying that non-P2Pool pools are not trustworthy will obviously imply that those who agree with that will not trust any pool but P2Pool and thus any of them could choose any pool to list as untrustworthy.

Not long after I mentioned that I trusted Ozcoin, the number of people who selected Ozcoin jumped up Tongue (from 1 to 4)

Be interesting to see if I've just caused yours to jump up Tongue
It's currently 7 - maybe even your comment made it go up 1 more?

Edit: actually I was thinking about this advocacy yesterday and realised I had seen something similar here on the forum before.
SolidCoin

Anyway, I would also suggest that my comments in this thread have probably made this current poll meaningless ... ... ... ...

Edit2: it's gone up 2 more since I posted - hmm I wonder

Pool: https://kano.is Here on Bitcointalk: Forum BTC: 1KanoPb8cKYqNrswjaA8cRDk4FAS9eDMLU
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Help keep Bitcoin secure by mining on pools with full block verification on all blocks - and NO empty blocks!
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