Thoughts on religion for a Sunday morning

[Rigon]

Religious belief hasn't arisen in anyone for a few million years....its bred into them from the teachings of their elders or their society.  It arose in people as a whole a few million years ago when we first began to contemplate our existence.  It was a gradual progression.  A few million years ago we were about as intelligent as an elephant is now.  Elephants are beginning to contemplate their existence.  They mourn their dead and they revisit grave sites many years later.  They are currently very likely confused about death, but they understand what it is and they ponder it because they visit grave sites.   When their language becomes more sophisticated they will start to tell themselves similar stories we told ourselves to calm our fears and uncertainty.

A tribal priest passing on stories to the warriors that if they fought well, they would sit on a throne in Valhalla for all eternity sure sounds a bit more inspiring than "if you get killed it's over".  It makes perfect sense. Why wouldn't we want to motive our kids or our subjects with stories that have a greater influence?  Rule by fear.

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[the joint]

These types of posts get under my skin.

There is a *vast* wealth of information and knowledge that one can explore that is completely off-limits to the scientific method.  This is why philosophers, for example, give serious consideration to religious claims.  It's not because they're stupid.  It's because they have, and know how to use, certain tools that scientists simply aren't allowed to use via their own methods.  

People who don't apply their intellect make foolish claims like "religion and intellect will never be compatible."

Here's my question, and I'll assume that you defect to the scientific method since that is often the proposed dichotomy:  What do you think about the intellect of someone who *solely* utilizes a specific method of knowledge acquisition that carries demonstrably false assumptions?  Because, guess what...science carries assumptions that are demonstrably false according to one's intellect.  

[jbrnt]

I am not religious and probably will never be, but I respect those who are. Some people do need a religion, they need it to give them strength, at times of weakness or uncertainty.

All major religions tends to give answers to three basic questions in life:
Where do we come from?
Where do we go when we die?
Why is life unfair?

If these three questions never bothered you, or you believed science gave you satisfactory answers. You tend not to be religious.

[sana8410]

To want understand who we are within a larger context is universal.  I could not disagree more  that intellect plays no part in religion...that is just an ignorant statement on its face making it also ironic.  
While religion and philosophy are not the same thing, there is an intellectual exercise with both that are similar as they grappling with the meaning of life, ultimate truth, etc.  Just because conclusions differ (between philosophers or  between religionists/non religionists) does not mean those who walk their respective paths do not use their brain to get or stay on one.  If one has ever actually studied philosophy or any major religion in depth, it is not an exercise for dummies.  
Reducing what you never learned down to the absurd so you can reject it does not a genius make.   

[umair127]

Religious belief can arise from many impulses -- fear, curiosity, you name it -- but one impulse I think it definitely comes from is love, which seems to be an essential component of all the big religions

Religion has no dibs on love or any other emotion.  People of every religion and people of no religion love just as deeply.
Why is religion always trying to take credit for the good things?   Love...yeah, that one's ours.  We got love.  We are all about love.  (Implying that those without religion aren't quite as in tune to love).  We got compassion....oh yeah....we are the most compassionate (implying that the non-religious are therefore less compassionate).  WE have a more fulfilled existence, less bleak  (that's pretty straightforward alleging those without religion are bleak).

 It is the greatest load of horseshit ever shoveled onto mankind and of all the religions of the world only the Buddha saw it.  He realized every human, no matter what they believe have felt the same emotions in the same ways and have the capacity to love and feel just as deeply as people of other faiths or of no faith.

I wasn't suggesting that religion has dibs on love. Quite the opposite, actually -- more like religion is one widespread method through which human empathy -- i.e., love -- manifests itself. I was also merely observing that organized religion (most particularly, from my vantage point, Christianity) "does" love more noticeably than many other organized human endeavors do. As a non-religious person myself, I'm not unaware of the unacceptable levels of sanctimony that goes along with religious belief, but on balance, I'll take a world with religion in it,despite all the bloodshed, over its opposite because I'm pretty well convinced that human beings can fix themselves without having to shed everything (you know, the baby-with-the-bathwater analogy). Religion has been with us from the beginning and it ain't going nowhere, and since it's inextricably mixed up with our capacity for empathy, I regard it hopefully (if not faithfully). In fact, because it is overwhelmingly Christian, I believe that contemporary right-wing American conservatism will eventually realize that so many of its immoral, non-Jesus-like political stances are just that -- violations of the code of the Christian gospels. (It should go without saying that I could be completely wrong, of course.)

[zolace]

I'm not sure if this is the same study I referenced, but if not, here's another:

London (CNN) – Religion comes naturally, even instinctively, to human beings, a massive new study of cultures all around the world suggests.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/12/religious-belief-is-human-nature-huge-new-study-claims/

[umair127]

I would never argue with the proposition that religious belief is part of human nature. As a child, I was indoctrinated into the beliefs of my tribe (working-class Roman Catholicism of the 1950s and '60s), but I took to it like a duck to water, so I know what a natural fit it can feel like.

[zolace]

I would never argue with the proposition that religious belief is part of human nature. As a child, I was indoctrinated into the beliefs of my tribe (working-class Roman Catholicism of the 1950s and '60s), but I took to it like a duck to water, so I know what a natural fit it can feel like.

That's actually kind of interesting, POTP.  As I was looking for that study, I came across a meta analysis of the negative correlation between intelligence and religion.  The conclusions are not as simple as "dumb = religious", but rather (paraphrasing here) that there are two levels of intelligence, the lower finding instinctive affinity to a belief in God and children especially.  The higher level finds affinity with analytical thinking which leads those who rely on the empirical.  It also detailed four possible reasons why the higher level have less motivation to seek the non empirical benefits of faith/religion.

[sana8410]

I just want to add this......... I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words. Anybody can talk a good game. As the Dalai Lama once said, "I have one religion....... 'kindness' ". Sincere kindness is a deep word, it covers all the altruistic things you mention and more. Sincerity is key as well. This can be attributed to all religions I'm aware of. 

The key seems to be either a belief that there is something greater than ourselves in this universe or there is not. I have come to believe that there definitely is, I just don't believe this inconceivable power is a god. But I don't have any problem calling it God. What this power is will be conceived differently by each one of us. 

Personally, I don't fear or praise it, I embrace it and I realize it is much more powerful than any of us. Then it becomes what is your definition of power in this realm............

[zolace]

I was blind and could not see.  I was deaf and could not hear.  Thinking people do not throw away their logic, their logic expands to encompass the unexplainable.  The Bible was written by man.  The Bible is not sacred.  But it points to a very good way to live.  It speaks of the wonder of faith in god.

[noviapriani]

"Zuckerman also warns that, despite there being thousands of participants overall, ranging among all ages, almost all of them belong to Western society. More than 87 percent of the participants were from the US, the UK, and Canada. So after controlling for other factors, they can only confidently show strong negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity among American Protestants. For Catholicism and Judaism, the correlation may be less negative. "     Martin Luther

[zolace]

"Zuckerman also warns that, despite there being thousands of participants overall, ranging among all ages, almost all of them belong to Western society. More than 87 percent of the participants were from the US, the UK, and Canada. So after controlling for other factors, they can only confidently show strong negative correlation between intelligence and religiosity among American Protestants. For Catholicism and Judaism, the correlation may be less negative. "     Martin Luther

Yup. Doesn't surprise me a bit. How dumb, after all, do you have to be to believe that God determined your life before the creation of the universe, yet you are responsible for your actions on earth. Or that god damned you before all creation, because, well, just because he felt like it. And how dumb do you have to be to think that "where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the universe" is a legitimate response to Job's question, "why did you kill my wife and kids, burn down my house and fields and slaughter my livestock?"

The reality is that Protestantism comes solely from emotion: not thought. Catholicism and Judaism come first from intellect. The closest thing we have to Protestantism is, well, Islam. No wonder why they hate each other so much: isn't it said we hate others most for the bad traits we see in them that we know reflect our own souls?

And doesn't the negative correlation explain pretty well why of the nine on SCOTUS, five are Catholic and two are Jewish?

And isn't the general ignorance and hatred of others that makes up most Protestant sects best reflected on this board with the members of the SBC like Sting? Everything that is wrong with religion, hell, everything wrong with the world, is brought to the fore in the SBC.

My vote is that we match one Protestant with one Muslim each, and let them kill each other. I PROMISE the world will be a far superior place thereafter.

[umair127]

I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words.
and I believe that, like Protestantism, that is a cop out from not having to adhere to a moral code, you get to decide whether your actions are good or not.

[sana8410]

I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words.
and I believe that, like Protestantism, that is a cop out from not having to adhere to a moral code, you get to decide whether your actions are good or not.

I find this higher power is inconceivable, and you are a Catholic and have named this power God and given it a set of tools, rules and garments I suppose so it is easier for you to accept. Yet I am certain this inconceivable power exists, I'm just not buying the man made rules. My rules are in my heart, mind and soul. This power resides in all of us, in everything in the universe............all connected.

Some make the connection, others live in denial, some just ignorant. You get your moral code from the Bible? Good luck with that.........

This power in the universe is much greater than I, I am powerless in comparison. but with an open mind I can see and I can hear..........

[umair127]

I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words.
and I believe that, like Protestantism, that is a cop out from not having to adhere to a moral code, you get to decide whether your actions are good or not.

I find this higher power is inconceivable, and you are a Catholic and have named this power God and given it a set of tools, rules and garments I suppose so it is easier for you to accept. Yet I am certain this inconceivable power exists, I'm just not buying the man made rules. My rules are in my heart, mind and soul. This power resides in all of us, in everything in the universe............all connected.

Some make the connection, others live in denial, some just ignorant. You get your moral code from the Bible? Good luck with that.........

This power in the universe is much greater than I, I am powerless in comparison. but with an open mind I can see and I can hear..........

lol. No, I'm not, because as I've noted a thousand times, Catholics have no more answer to the theodetic question than do Protestants.

My rules are in my heart, mind and soul.

which is exactly what I said, sana thanks. And I believe that making your own rules is taking, no pun intended, the way out.

[sana8410]

I believe that having a specific religion is not important, the important things are our actions, not our words.
and I believe that, like Protestantism, that is a cop out from not having to adhere to a moral code, you get to decide whether your actions are good or not.

I find this higher power is inconceivable, and you are a Catholic and have named this power God and given it a set of tools, rules and garments I suppose so it is easier for you to accept. Yet I am certain this inconceivable power exists, I'm just not buying the man made rules. My rules are in my heart, mind and soul. This power resides in all of us, in everything in the universe............all connected.

Some make the connection, others live in denial, some just ignorant. You get your moral code from the Bible? Good luck with that.........

This power in the universe is much greater than I, I am powerless in comparison. but with an open mind I can see and I can hear..........

lol. No, I'm not, because as I've noted a thousand times, Catholics have no more answer to the theodetic question than do Protestants.

My rules are in my heart, mind and soul.

which is exactly what I said, sana thanks. And I believe that making your own rules is taking, no pun intended, the way out.

I beg to differ, my higher power, that you choose to designate as 'God', provides the rules and morals. It is up to me to listen and do the right thing. I haven't made any of my own rules, I am guided by a power greater than any of us.

Sorry, I made an assumption, you sounded kind of Catholic and you are Puerto Rican so I thought......

[zolace]

I sincerely believe religion has nothing to do with God. In my mind to combine the two is both bizarre and ridiculous. Religions are an attempt by early groups of people to understand what they saw around them. What they decided on was usually nonsensical because they were uneducated and often desperate for answers. The quest for God is a more noble effort and can manifest itself in many varied and interesting ways. The first is wallowing in fear, uncertainty and superstition. The second can be a sincere search for truth.

[umair127]

Came across a wonderful quote the other day:

Religions are like EULAs - most people don't read them, they prefer to scroll down to the bottom and click 'agree'.

...and that is the most constructive thing I have to add to this debate.

Men never do evil so completely or so joyfully than when they do it from religious conviction.
Blaise Pascal.

[Rigon]

Try to put yourself in the place of primitive, Middle eastern nomads 4000+ years ago.  Sitting at night tending your flock, lying back, staring at the majesty of the night sky.

Wouldn't it make you wonder?  Would you have made up magical beings or a magical being that created it all?

Well, that's what happened.  Not you of course, you probably don't have the imagination any way.

[sana8410]

Why when someone sees a beautiful view do they claim "Look how beautiful that is. Only God could have created that. It is proof of his existence". Actually its proof of no such thing. It is what happens because of time, weather, nature and natural elements in harmony. Its not due to anything superstitious. It is the beauty of reality.