Business idea (Off-Topic, but looking for feedback)

[Rassah]

One question, are we helping you do your homework?

No. This is actually something I have been trying to pursue for a while now (Actually, a different business idea I'll post after this one), but which I've taken a hiatus from for the last year or so. I now found a new avenue to pursue it through, and just want feedback on the idea before I go there.

Further reading: http://www.usmaglevcoalition.com/projects.php

These guys are stuck on the German electromagnetic system as if it's the holy grail or something. We tried dealing with them, but, um, screw those guys

Ok, but industrial regulations the DOT and unions are going to kill you before you ever get off the ground. Have you done any of this research?

Only as a spectator, watching Transrapid flail around with their technology for the last ten years. Some people plan to build a MAGLEV line between Baltimore and DC, some other people plan and study the project, then they find out it's too expensive and shut it down. Few years later, rinse and repeat. This is why I am going with individualized cargo. There are WAY more "cargo" riders than "people" riders (almost no one uses public transportation), and with it shipping one pallet at a time, the whole system has a much smaller footprint than a passenger system would.  Think a 12 foot wide box shaped "wall" with one rail stacked on top of the other instead of side by side. Since it's just cargo, I may even be able to just bury the thing underground in some places (covered trench instead of tunnel). Mostly I am hoping that since my system is much cheaper than the other maglev systems, there won't be as many complaints (again, electromagnetic Transrapid is $30m to $40m per mile, mine is $5m), but fighting against trucking unions and regulators will be a bitch no doubt.

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[Rassah]

Living in China I have taken the (AFAIA) only commercial Maglev commuter train (it goes between the airport and the city in Shanghai).

The cost of that rather short line was so expensive that no other Maglev line has been constructed here (and the other high speed trains run nearly as smoothly and not that much slower).

The cost is not due to the trains but the tracks (the accuracy required for Maglev tracks is much greater than for other high speed trains).

The cost issue with the Chinese system (electromagnet based Transrapid) was that they built it on sandy swampy land, which ended up costing WAY more than necessary. The cost of the ticket is high in part because they are trying to recoup their costs, ad in part because their maglev system is very inefficient. Since it uses computers and electronics for balance, each of their trains has to have redundant electronics and batteries. That's crap that the train is required to lift along with the passenger cargo. In fact, most of the train weight is batteries and electronics. Also, the train has a "manually" controlled motor that requires manual changes in frequency of the electricity used to move it. Changing frequency is a VERY expensive process. In short, it costs a lot in electricity to run the inefficient things. In comparison, my system is light (one Transrapid train weighs 150 tons, whereas if they used our tech, it would weigh 25 tons, because batteries and electromagnets are HEAVY!), and my system runs on standard constant frequency 60Hz electric power. No need to change frequencies to change speeds.

Your point about train tracks being extremely precise is valid, but is not really a problem. High speed rail all over Europe is built with tolerances of under 3mm.

[Rassah]

You are talking about something that will involve a LOT of government interaction. That involvement will put you in the line of fire of inspectors and require you to comply with building code in multiple jurisdictions. You will be required to deal with unions in order to satisfy government factions and DOT regulations, again, across multiple jurisdictions. That’s a killer for really big business and they already have the game in play.

Not disputing any of that, and am quite aware of it. If I start in Nevada, in the middle of nowhere, between two distribution centers separated by nothing but desert and a stretch of highway, I hope to avoid most of those issues, at least by not attracting attention initially.
Also, please keep in mind this is not a project I plan on building myself as a hobby or something. Its not like opening a restaurant (even that requires a whole slew of regulations). This will be presented to venture capitalists for initial funding, the R&D phase will be done in conjunction with a local state university, where I may give up a few rights to the patent and work as a consultant teaching students to work with it, in exchange for getting their support, and I will be hiring a whole slew of people to work on the project, including lawyers and consultants. My job will only be as project manager, where I just oversee it's construction, AFTER I get the initial push off the ground

[Phinnaeus Gage]

How practical would it be to incorporate your idea with the bloom box? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcLq3B8C5sk

I'm assuming that this system is operated by electricity from off the grid. If that's the case, then eliminate the grid completely by having bloom box unites either stationed along the line, part of the cargo container, or both.

~Bruno (not Bruno Edison)

[Rassah]

How practical would it be to incorporate your idea with the bloom box? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcLq3B8C5sk

I'm assuming that this system is operated by electricity from off the grid. If that's the case, then eliminate the grid completely by having bloom box units either stationed along the line, part of the cargo container, or both.

~Bruno (not Bruno Edison)

It doesn't really matter where the power here comes from. There is also no power on the trains themselves, since they are mostly just chunks of steel and magnets. Using bloomboxes would be possible, but would add more complexity to a project that you can just plug into whatever nearby source of power is the cheapest.


I'm off to bed. Will reply to more questions tomorrow.

[CIYAM]

The cost issue with the Chinese system (electromagnet based Transrapid) was that they built it on sandy swampy land, which ended up costing WAY more than necessary.

Yes that is correct, however, it is interesting that the high speed train from Beijing to Tianjin (built years later) which is built on extremely flat and dry land was not done with Maglev (but does run at around 400kmh).

I think that if it was more cost effective then the Chinese would have chosen Maglev instead.

[Rassah]

Yes that is correct, however, it is interesting that the high speed train from Beijing to Tianjin (built years later) which is built on extremely flat and dry land was not done with Maglev (but does run at around 400kmh).

I think that if it was more cost effective then the Chinese would have chosen Maglev instead.

I don't understand, but I think you are thinking that there is only one kind of maglev, or that all maglev costs the same?

[CIYAM]

I don't understand, but I think you are thinking that there is only one kind of maglev, or that all maglev costs the same?

I am no expert in the technology or different variations thereof but I do know that China is building high speed railway like no other country on earth so if you can provide a more cost effective means of doing it then you should be doing it there.

[tarrant_01]

You are talking about something that will involve a LOT of government interaction. That involvement will put you in the line of fire of inspectors and require you to comply with building code in multiple jurisdictions. You will be required to deal with unions in order to satisfy government factions and DOT regulations, again, across multiple jurisdictions. That’s a killer for really big business and they already have the game in play.

And then DHS as well...gotta stop the terrorists from bombing our rail systems.  Not sure if you've considered the cost to secure the line.

[organofcorti]

Here's a suggestion - pneumatic tubes.

I'm serious. You have a bunch of very large pneumatic tubes. Insert your cargo pod, low pressure in front, higher pressure behind. Use the maglev to reduce friction, braking can add power to the air turbines. If you want you could evacuate the air and add any low friction gas you want.

Someone did something like this but without the maglev a century or so ago. Or maybe I was just reading some steampunk. Anyway, this is very well understood tech and might make things a bit easier at the start.

[rjk]

Here's a suggestion - pneumatic tubes.

I'm serious. You have a bunch of very large pneumatic tubes. Insert your cargo pod, low pressure in front, higher pressure behind. Use the maglev to reduce friction, braking can add power to the air turbines. If you want you could evacuate the air and add any low friction gas you want.

Someone did something like this but without the maglev a century or so ago. Or maybe I was just reading some steampunk. Anyway, this is very well understood tech and might make things a bit easier at the start.

If the maglev is able to do all the work, why bother with the tubes?

[caveden]

This sounds really ambitious.

Why are you focused only on cargo transportation? Can't the same technology eventually transport passengers? If you are able to build truck-sized "trains", can't you make the equivalent of buses as well?

I wonder how smaller can you get... it would be awesome if one day our ordinary family cars were able to hop on some rails and run on super-speeds. (btw, google tells me 350mph ~ 563kph... that's fucking fast! I don't think there's any commercial train in the world running at such speed, is there?)

[rjk]

This sounds really ambitious.

Why are you focused only on cargo transportation? Can't the same technology eventually transport passengers? If you are able to build truck-sized "trains", can't you make the equivalent of buses as well?

I wonder how smaller can you get... it would be awesome if one day our ordinary family cars were able to hop on some rails and run on super-speeds. (btw, google tells me 350mph ~ 563kph... that's fucking fast! I don't think there's any commercial train in the world running at such speed, is there?)

Cargo tends to be less sensitive to acceleration and deceleration than humans, and there would be less safety engineering needed.

Also, the air resistance increases by the square of the speed, not linearly. So hurtling through the air at 350 mph is a hell of a lot more ambitious than going at say 250 mph. Just ask the engineers that designed the Bugatti.

[CIYAM]

(btw, google tells me 350mph ~ 563kph... that's fucking fast! I don't think there's any commercial train in the world running at such speed, is there?)

The Shanghai maglev will reach a top speed of 431 km/h during peak hour trips (only 301 km/h off peak).

[Rassah]

The best place to present a project of this magnitude for scrutiny would be a think tank at a major university.  

Trolls and naysayers on forums are free  

I am no expert in the technology or different variations thereof but I do know that China is building high speed railway like no other country on earth so if you can provide a more cost effective means of doing it then you should be doing it there.

I have actually seriously considered China, and despite their total disregard for patents and copyright, I do know how to work with them, and, personally, would be willing to partner up. The two problems I have are 1 - I have no idea how to approach them (especially since they are already sold on Transrapid), and 2 - my grandfather has struggled against communism all his life and doing this with China would be... uncomfortable. Being royalty, his parents were executed, and he was on the run as an enemy of the state throughout his entire youth. He was only left alone, somewhat, after he got his engineering degrees and proved to the government that he is worth a lot more alive than dead. They still spied on him and made his life difficult though (the phones in his house always made a *click-whirr* sound when you tried to call someone).

And then DHS as well...gotta stop the terrorists from bombing our rail systems.  Not sure if you've considered the cost to secure the line.

I haven't, beyond just putting up walls to prevent foreign objects from getting in. Since the system will be closed in the middle, and only open at the distribution center ends, I haven't considered security to be a problem. But I guess someone could load a bomb into a box with a GPS, ship it, and have it detonate in the middle of the rails. A 350mph bomb would do a hell of a lot of damage Thanks for the tip.

Here's a suggestion - pneumatic tubes.

Less efficient. Maglev uses an electric motor, with a gap of less than 1cm between windings and magnet. Almost no power is lost. With tubes, you have to power fans, spin them up and down, and pipe the air around corners and such. Tubes also make it more difficult to automate the thing. With the speed and power being built into the track, you can send a train one after another at a 10 second interval, and though the trains will speed up and slow down, they will always be at the same 10 second interval (the system works by sending electric waves down the rails, and the trains ride the waves). With pneumatics, you either have to send one train at a time, or hope that the train in front is sufficiently being pushed by the train behind.

Why are you focused only on cargo transportation? Can't the same technology eventually transport passengers? If you are able to build truck-sized "trains", can't you make the equivalent of buses as well?

Yes. The original patent actually uses passenger trains as example, and in fact, my other business idea involves moving 12meter 30+ ton containers. The problem is pretty much no one in US rides public transport and passenger trains here are not profitable, and in Europe everyone is fixated on the German Transrapid technology, and at the same time wary of ALL Maglev tech because Transrapid was such a colossal waste of money (it works, but only after billions were sunk into it over the last 40 years). Last night I was thinking that, eventually, these will be inevitable for passengers. We won't have oil (jet fuel) for ever, and once that starts to run out, a trip from DC to NY, instead of taking 1 hour by plane, will have to take 4.5 to 5 hours by solar or battery powered dirigible or prop plane. Ground based electric will be the only high speed option.

I wonder how smaller can you get... it would be awesome if one day our ordinary family cars were able to hop on some rails and run on super-speeds. (btw, google tells me 350mph ~ 563kph... that's fucking fast! I don't think there's any commercial train in the world running at such speed, is there?)

If I wasn't clear in my business proposal in the OP, I am not proposing truck-sized trains, but only something that would carry two refrigerators or a small sedan, being launched as soon as the box is dropped on it, as opposed to waiting to get filled like trucks are. That's about the smallest this tech allows, though, since it depends on the speed of conductivity of aluminum. Any smaller would require more conductive materials (gold for example) and would make it prohibitively expensive.
Commercial wheel-on-rail trains can't go that fast because centripetal forces will shred the wheels, and there are friction and vibration issues. The main barrier, though, is transferring power to the trains. Overhead lines can't support high speeds. It may be possible to build wheel-on-steel trains using out linear motor technology, though, assuming the wheels can take the abuse.

[cbeast]

Your basic idea isn't new. Francis Bellamy wrote about it in 1887 sans the maglev. Germany has been working on this awhile too. http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/02/a-world-without.html
The Venus Project's Jacque Fresco has designs for high speed maglev through vacuum tubes for speeds approaching 6000 mph. The Zeitgeist Movement also has many such designs.

[Rassah]

Your basic idea isn't new. Francis Bellamy wrote about it in 1887 sans the maglev. Germany has been working on this awhile too. http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/02/a-world-without.html
The Venus Project's Jacque Fresco has designs for high speed maglev through vacuum tubes for speeds approaching 6000 mph. The Zeitgeist Movement also has many such designs.

I would love to hear Jacque Fresco's design for suspending a train in the air using nothing but magnetism. What type of maglev system did he design, and how does it work?

Thanks for the link btw. Definitely useful. It's good to know that others are looking for something like this, and that I can mention to VC's that the technology they will be investing in may later be sold to those other guys.

[cbeast]

Your basic idea isn't new. Francis Bellamy wrote about it in 1887 sans the maglev. Germany has been working on this awhile too. http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/02/a-world-without.html
The Venus Project's Jacque Fresco has designs for high speed maglev through vacuum tubes for speeds approaching 6000 mph. The Zeitgeist Movement also has many such designs.

I would love to hear Jacque Fresco's design for suspending a train in the air using nothing but magnetism. What type of maglev system did he design, and how does it work?

As a former Interstate truck driver, I am 100% for an underground freight transport system. I am not familiar with the engineered systems out there. Jacque Fresco is a 94 y/o industrial designer, not an engineer. I don't think he has specific schematics. Naval rail guns achieve artillery velocities, so it must be possible.

[Rassah]

Your basic idea isn't new. Francis Bellamy wrote about it in 1887 sans the maglev. Germany has been working on this awhile too. http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2008/02/a-world-without.html
The Venus Project's Jacque Fresco has designs for high speed maglev through vacuum tubes for speeds approaching 6000 mph. The Zeitgeist Movement also has many such designs.

I would love to hear Jacque Fresco's design for suspending a train in the air using nothing but magnetism. What type of maglev system did he design, and how does it work?

As a former Interstate truck driver, I am 100% for an underground freight transport system. I am not familiar with the engineered systems out there. Jacque Fresco is a 94 y/o industrial designer, not an engineer. I don't think he has specific schematics. Naval rail guns achieve artillery velocities, so it must be possible.

Ah, um, yeah, I was kind of expecting that. Coming up with an idea for sending a train through a tube, and using a fancy word like "maglev," isn't coming up with a "maglev design." There are a lot of these "designs" out there, but none have been build since 1887, because the maglev part is actually the most important and most difficult part of it. It's only recently that Transrapid, JR-Maglev, and our system were invented, and all three are still being developed. My system, which I actually own, is the only one that allows for such cheap automated transport, and is what I hope will allow my project to actually become a reality.
As for naval railguns, they use maglev style propulsion, but not suspension. The propulsion is basically your average every-day motor, but unwrapped into a flat strip instead of being a circle, so the magnets move forward instead of swinging around an axis. That, again, is the easy part. Making something hover on magnets has always been the difficult part.

Still, really awesome to hear others are actually working on developing something like that. I would prefer to have this be above ground to save on tunneling though, which is another reason I am pushing for "small."

[rjk]

I would prefer to have this be above ground to save on tunneling though, which is another reason I am pushing for "small."

"Small" also cuts down on the surface area exposed to oncoming air mass, resulting in greater speed potentials.