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Author Topic: Bitcoin will be bigger than Facebook  (Read 19615 times)
leex1528
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July 02, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
 #41

Winklevoss twins: Bitcoin will be bigger than Facebook. The brothers, two of the most influential players in a new generation of investors, say bitcoin will encourage financial openness.

http://www.ahametals.com/bitcoin-bigger-than-facebook/

You do realize Zuckerberg stole their idea, he got sued by the Winklevoss twins and lost because HE DID SOME SHIFTY SHIT.

That is why they are comparing it to Facebook lol.

Sounds like someone watched The Social Network.  haha

Who actually knows what happened and who stole what?  Probably only them and you probably will never get the truth out of any of them involved.
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July 02, 2014, 02:09:10 PM
 #42

Winklevoss twins: Bitcoin will be bigger than Facebook. The brothers, two of the most influential players in a new generation of investors, say bitcoin will encourage financial openness.

http://www.ahametals.com/bitcoin-bigger-than-facebook/

You do realize Zuckerberg stole their idea, he got sued by the Winklevoss twins and lost because HE DID SOME SHIFTY SHIT.

That is why they are comparing it to Facebook lol.

Sounds like someone watched The Social Network.  haha

Who actually knows what happened and who stole what?  Probably only them and you probably will never get the truth out of any of them involved.

The case that launched a thousand cinema trips – after it became the basis for the Hollywood film The Social Network in 2010 – ended with a whimper rather than a bang in a one-paragraph court filing by the twins. They said they would forgo a trip to the US supreme court and accept a 2008 settlement which gave them a mixture of $20m cash and Facebook stock which at the time was worth around $45m. Since then the putative value of the privately-held Facebook has grown more than fourfold, from $15bn to $70bn. The twins' stock is thus in theory worth more than $150m.


As a general rule people don't "Settle" when they are right for high amounts of money btw. Sounds like you aren't smart. DERPPPPPPPPPPPP
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July 02, 2014, 02:15:03 PM
 #43

Winklevoss twins: Bitcoin will be bigger than Facebook. The brothers, two of the most influential players in a new generation of investors, say bitcoin will encourage financial openness.

http://www.ahametals.com/bitcoin-bigger-than-facebook/

You do realize Zuckerberg stole their idea, he got sued by the Winklevoss twins and lost because HE DID SOME SHIFTY SHIT.

That is why they are comparing it to Facebook lol.

Sounds like someone watched The Social Network.  haha

Who actually knows what happened and who stole what?  Probably only them and you probably will never get the truth out of any of them involved.

The case that launched a thousand cinema trips – after it became the basis for the Hollywood film The Social Network in 2010 – ended with a whimper rather than a bang in a one-paragraph court filing by the twins. They said they would forgo a trip to the US supreme court and accept a 2008 settlement which gave them a mixture of $20m cash and Facebook stock which at the time was worth around $45m. Since then the putative value of the privately-held Facebook has grown more than fourfold, from $15bn to $70bn. The twins' stock is thus in theory worth more than $150m.


As a general rule people don't "Settle" when they are right for high amounts of money btw. Sounds like you aren't smart. DERPPPPPPPPPPPP

I know they are worth tons of money, I didn't say they weren't.

I said you have no idea what happened, neither do I.

Why I do agree that people don't usually settle if they are right, people will settle if the following occurs:  They were in the right, but didn't have enough proof to say otherwise, even if they settle, it isn't going to hurt anything at all financially to them.

Soooo....Don't just go randomly insulting people on the internet  because you are hiding behind a computer.
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August 23, 2014, 09:23:47 AM
 #44

We know that bitcoin is a P2P "currency" and facebook is social media,  two things are totally different from each other and also their "GOALS".So why we do compare between bitcoin & facebook  like a foolish..
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August 23, 2014, 11:03:54 AM
 #45

Facebook is already lossing steam, most people are getting bored with it and moved into "cooler" things like Instagram and Twitter. All of this shit is only useful to get laid if you have a good face anyway.

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August 23, 2014, 11:06:47 AM
 #46

I dont think so!!!

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August 23, 2014, 12:19:16 PM
 #47

I know that topic is quite old but i'm interesting how much people are using Bitcoins?

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August 23, 2014, 12:33:27 PM
 #48


Is Bitcoin ready for Billion of users actively using it ?

No, bitcoin is nowhere close to being ready to handle the entire world economy in a way like Visa or Mastercard. We simply do not have enough payment processors or exchanges to make this feasible yet. It is very alarming how the Winklevii are putting all of their money into their ETF project and not giving anything to the bitcoin core development team. We need side chains and we need them fast if we want this to go global. It is such a disgrace that $200million in VC funding is there and they can't even spare a couple 100k dollars to hire a few more core developers.

I'm not sure why so many people are opting for side-chains when it's already been proven that hardware exists that can accommodate for all transactions world-wide even when multiplying it with 10 times what VISA does today.... Non specialized equipment would run "lite" clients.


VISA handles on average around 2,000 transactions per second (tps), so call it a daily peak rate of 47,000 tps. [1]

PayPal, in contrast, handles around 4 million transactions per day for an average of 46 tps or a probably peak rate of 100 tps.

Let's take 4,000 tps as starting goal. Obviously if we want Bitcoin to scale to all economic transactions worldwide, including cash, it'd be a lot higher than that, perhaps more in the region of a few hundred thousand tps. And the need to be able to withstand DoS attacks (which VISA does not have to deal with) implies we would want to scale far beyond the standard peak rates. Still, picking a target let us do some basic calculations even if it's a little arbitrary.

Today the Bitcoin network is restricted to a sustained rate of 7 tps by some artificial limits. These were put in place to stop people from ballooning the size of the block chain before the network and community was ready for it. Once those limits are lifted, the maximum transaction rate will go up significantly.

The protocol has two parts. Nodes send "inv" messages to other nodes telling them they have a new transaction. If the receiving node doesn't have that transaction it requests it with a getdata.

The big cost is the crypto and block chain lookups involved with verifying the transaction. Verifying a transaction means some hashing and some ECDSA signature verifications. RIPEMD-160 runs at 106 megabytes/sec (call it 100 for simplicity) and SHA256 is about the same. So hashing 1 megabyte should take around 10 milliseconds and hashing 1 kilobyte would take 0.01 milliseconds - fast enough that we can ignore it.

Bitcoin is currently able (with a couple of simple optimizations that are prototyped but not merged yet) to perform around 8000 signature verifications per second on an quad core Intel Core i7-2670QM 2.2Ghz processor. The average number of inputs per transaction is around 2, so we must halve the rate. This means 4000 tps is easily achievable CPU-wise with a single fairly mainstream CPU.

As we can see, this means as long as Bitcoin nodes are allowed to max out at least 4 cores of the machines they run on, we will not run out of CPU capacity for signature checking unless Bitcoin is handling 100 times as much traffic as PayPal. As of late 2012 the network is handling 0.5 transactions/second, so even assuming enormous growth in popularity we will not reach this level for a long time.

Of course Bitcoin does other things beyond signature checking, most obviously, managing the database. We use LevelDB which does the bulk of the heavy lifting on a separate thread, and is capable of very high read/write loads. Overall Bitcoin's CPU usage is dominated by ECDSA.

Let's assume an average rate of 2000tps, so just VISA. Transactions vary in size from about 0.2 kilobytes to over 1 kilobyte, but it's averaging half a kilobyte today.

That means that you need to keep up with around 8 megabits/second of transaction data (2000tps * 512 bytes) / 1024 bytes in a kilobyte / 1024 kilobytes in a megabyte = 0.97 megabytes per second * 8 = 7.8 megabits/second.

This sort of bandwidth is already common for even residential connections today, and is certainly at the low end of what colocation providers would expect to provide you with.

When blocks are solved, the current protocol will send the transactions again, even if a peer has already seen it at broadcast time. Fixing this to make blocks just list of hashes would resolve the issue and make the bandwidth needed for block broadcast negligable. So whilst this optimization isn't fully implemented today, we do not consider block transmission bandwidth here.

At very high transaction rates each block can be over half a gigabyte in size.

It is not required for most fully validating nodes to store the entire chain. In Satoshi's paper he describes "pruning", a way to delete unnecessary data about transactions that are fully spent. This reduces the amount of data that is needed for a fully validating node to be only the size of the current unspent output size, plus some additional data that is needed to handle re-orgs. As of October 2012 (block 203258) there have been 7,979,231 transactions, however the size of the unspent output set is less than 100MiB, which is small enough to easily fit in RAM for even quite old computers.

Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary.

The primary limiting factor in Bitcoin's performance is disk seeks once the unspent transaction output set stops fitting in memory. It is quite possible that the set will always fit in memory on dedicated server class machines, if hardware advances faster than Bitcoin usage does.

Optimizations

The description above applies to the current software with only minor optimizations assumed (the type that can and have been done by one man in a few weeks).

However there is potential for even greater optimizations to be made in future, at the cost of some additional complexity.

CPU

Pieter Wuille has implemented a custom verifier tuned for secp256k1 that can go beyond 20,000 signature verifications per second. It would require careful review by professional cryptographers to gain as much confidence as OpenSSL, but this can easily halve CPU load.

Algorithms exist to accelerate batch verification over elliptic curve signatures. This means if there are several inputs that are signing with the same key, it's possible to check their signatures simultaneously for another 9x speedup. This is a somewhat more complex implementation, however, it can work with existing signatures (clients don't need upgrading).

Newly developed digital signature algorithms, like ed25519 have extremely efficient software implementations that can reach speeds of nearly 80,000 verifications per second, even on an old Westmere CPU. That is a 10x improvement over secp256k1, and most likely is even higher on more modern CPUs. Supporting this in Bitcoin would mean a chain fork. This ECC algorithm has also been shown to be easily accelerated using GPUs, yielding scalar point multiplication times of less than a microsecond (i.e. a million point multiplications per second).

At these speeds it is likely that disk and memory bandwidth would become the primary limiting factor, rather than signature checking.

Simplified payment verification

It's possible to build a Bitcoin implementation that does not verify everything, but instead relies on either connecting to a trusted node, or puts its faith in high difficulty as a proxy for proof of validity. bitcoinj is an implementation of this mode.

In Simplified Payment Verification (SPV) mode, named after the section of Satoshi's paper that describes it, clients connect to an arbitrary full node and download only the block headers. They verify the chain headers connect together correctly and that the difficulty is high enough. They then request transactions matching particular patterns from the remote node (ie, payments to your addresses), which provides copies of those transactions along with a Merkle branch linking them to the block in which they appeared. This exploits the Merkle tree structure to allow proof of inclusion without needing the full contents of the block.

As a further optimization, block headers that are buried sufficiently deep can be thrown away after some time (eg, you only really need to store say 5000 blocks).

The level of difficulty required to obtain confidence the remote node is not feeding you fictional transactions depends on your threat model. If you are connecting to a node that is known to be reliable, the difficulty doesn't matter. If you want to pick a random node, the cost for an attacker to mine a block sequence containing a bogus transaction should be higher than the value to be obtained by defrauding you. By changing how deeply buried the block must be, you can trade off confirmation time vs cost of an attack.

Programs implementing this approach can have fixed storage/network overhead in the null case of no usage, and resource usage proportional to received/sent transactions.


SOURCE: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability


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August 23, 2014, 12:42:12 PM
 #49

actually they say that because they lost facebook and they are in bitcoin now
but I don't think so now
facebook is so viral and mainstream that it is incredible and bitcoin can't be over that
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August 23, 2014, 01:01:53 PM
 #50

I'm a little surprised no one's made a decent attempt at a blockchain powered social media site yet.  Closest things so far are Twister and possibly OneName.  I suppose crypto enthusiasts are big on keeping personal information secure, so perhaps there's just less interest in developing something loosely equivalent to a decentralised facebook.  Might help make crypto awareness spread more quickly if someone could make it work, though.

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mining is so 2012-2013


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August 23, 2014, 01:46:51 PM
 #51

Bitcoin is already the biggest computational network on the planet.

What great and interesting computations has it made? Any new discoveries? Any huge breakthroughs?

It is the biggest, yes, the biggest waste.

I love bitcoin, I do, but I think there is a mining problem.

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August 23, 2014, 01:51:31 PM
 #52


Is Bitcoin ready for Billion of users actively using it ?

No, bitcoin is nowhere close to being ready to handle the entire world economy in a way like Visa or Mastercard. We simply do not have enough payment processors or exchanges to make this feasible yet. It is very alarming how the Winklevii are putting all of their money into their ETF project and not giving anything to the bitcoin core development team. We need side chains and we need them fast if we want this to go global. It is such a disgrace that $200million in VC funding is there and they can't even spare a couple 100k dollars to hire a few more core developers.

I'm not sure why so many people are opting for side-chains when it's already been proven that hardware exists that can accommodate for all transactions world-wide even when multiplying it with 10 times what VISA does today.... Non specialized equipment would run "lite" clients.


VISA handles on average around 2,000 transactions per second (tps), so call it a daily peak rate of 47,000 tps. [1]

PayPal, in contrast, handles around 4 million transactions per day for an average of 46 tps or a probably peak rate of 100 tps.

Let's take 4,000 tps as starting goal. Obviously if we want Bitcoin to scale to all economic transactions worldwide, including cash, it'd be a lot higher than that, perhaps more in the region of a few hundred thousand tps. And the need to be able to withstand DoS attacks (which VISA does not have to deal with) implies we would want to scale far beyond the standard peak rates. Still, picking a target let us do some basic calculations even if it's a little arbitrary.

Today the Bitcoin network is restricted to a sustained rate of 7 tps by some artificial limits. These were put in place to stop people from ballooning the size of the block chain before the network and community was ready for it. Once those limits are lifted, the maximum transaction rate will go up significantly.

The protocol has two parts. Nodes send "inv" messages to other nodes telling them they have a new transaction. If the receiving node doesn't have that transaction it requests it with a getdata.

The big cost is the crypto and block chain lookups involved with verifying the transaction. Verifying a transaction means some hashing and some ECDSA signature verifications. RIPEMD-160 runs at 106 megabytes/sec (call it 100 for simplicity) and SHA256 is about the same. So hashing 1 megabyte should take around 10 milliseconds and hashing 1 kilobyte would take 0.01 milliseconds - fast enough that we can ignore it.

Bitcoin is currently able (with a couple of simple optimizations that are prototyped but not merged yet) to perform around 8000 signature verifications per second on an quad core Intel Core i7-2670QM 2.2Ghz processor. The average number of inputs per transaction is around 2, so we must halve the rate. This means 4000 tps is easily achievable CPU-wise with a single fairly mainstream CPU.

As we can see, this means as long as Bitcoin nodes are allowed to max out at least 4 cores of the machines they run on, we will not run out of CPU capacity for signature checking unless Bitcoin is handling 100 times as much traffic as PayPal. As of late 2012 the network is handling 0.5 transactions/second, so even assuming enormous growth in popularity we will not reach this level for a long time.

Of course Bitcoin does other things beyond signature checking, most obviously, managing the database. We use LevelDB which does the bulk of the heavy lifting on a separate thread, and is capable of very high read/write loads. Overall Bitcoin's CPU usage is dominated by ECDSA.

Let's assume an average rate of 2000tps, so just VISA. Transactions vary in size from about 0.2 kilobytes to over 1 kilobyte, but it's averaging half a kilobyte today.

That means that you need to keep up with around 8 megabits/second of transaction data (2000tps * 512 bytes) / 1024 bytes in a kilobyte / 1024 kilobytes in a megabyte = 0.97 megabytes per second * 8 = 7.8 megabits/second.

This sort of bandwidth is already common for even residential connections today, and is certainly at the low end of what colocation providers would expect to provide you with.

When blocks are solved, the current protocol will send the transactions again, even if a peer has already seen it at broadcast time. Fixing this to make blocks just list of hashes would resolve the issue and make the bandwidth needed for block broadcast negligable. So whilst this optimization isn't fully implemented today, we do not consider block transmission bandwidth here.

At very high transaction rates each block can be over half a gigabyte in size.

It is not required for most fully validating nodes to store the entire chain. In Satoshi's paper he describes "pruning", a way to delete unnecessary data about transactions that are fully spent. This reduces the amount of data that is needed for a fully validating node to be only the size of the current unspent output size, plus some additional data that is needed to handle re-orgs. As of October 2012 (block 203258) there have been 7,979,231 transactions, however the size of the unspent output set is less than 100MiB, which is small enough to easily fit in RAM for even quite old computers.

Only a small number of archival nodes need to store the full chain going back to the genesis block. These nodes can be used to bootstrap new fully validating nodes from scratch but are otherwise unnecessary.

The primary limiting factor in Bitcoin's performance is disk seeks once the unspent transaction output set stops fitting in memory. It is quite possible that the set will always fit in memory on dedicated server class machines, if hardware advances faster than Bitcoin usage does.

Optimizations

The description above applies to the current software with only minor optimizations assumed (the type that can and have been done by one man in a few weeks).

However there is potential for even greater optimizations to be made in future, at the cost of some additional complexity.

CPU

Pieter Wuille has implemented a custom verifier tuned for secp256k1 that can go beyond 20,000 signature verifications per second. It would require careful review by professional cryptographers to gain as much confidence as OpenSSL, but this can easily halve CPU load.

Algorithms exist to accelerate batch verification over elliptic curve signatures. This means if there are several inputs that are signing with the same key, it's possible to check their signatures simultaneously for another 9x speedup. This is a somewhat more complex implementation, however, it can work with existing signatures (clients don't need upgrading).

Newly developed digital signature algorithms, like ed25519 have extremely efficient software implementations that can reach speeds of nearly 80,000 verifications per second, even on an old Westmere CPU. That is a 10x improvement over secp256k1, and most likely is even higher on more modern CPUs. Supporting this in Bitcoin would mean a chain fork. This ECC algorithm has also been shown to be easily accelerated using GPUs, yielding scalar point multiplication times of less than a microsecond (i.e. a million point multiplications per second).

At these speeds it is likely that disk and memory bandwidth would become the primary limiting factor, rather than signature checking.

Simplified payment verification

It's possible to build a Bitcoin implementation that does not verify everything, but instead relies on either connecting to a trusted node, or puts its faith in high difficulty as a proxy for proof of validity. bitcoinj is an implementation of this mode.

In Simplified Payment Verification (SPV) mode, named after the section of Satoshi's paper that describes it, clients connect to an arbitrary full node and download only the block headers. They verify the chain headers connect together correctly and that the difficulty is high enough. They then request transactions matching particular patterns from the remote node (ie, payments to your addresses), which provides copies of those transactions along with a Merkle branch linking them to the block in which they appeared. This exploits the Merkle tree structure to allow proof of inclusion without needing the full contents of the block.

As a further optimization, block headers that are buried sufficiently deep can be thrown away after some time (eg, you only really need to store say 5000 blocks).

The level of difficulty required to obtain confidence the remote node is not feeding you fictional transactions depends on your threat model. If you are connecting to a node that is known to be reliable, the difficulty doesn't matter. If you want to pick a random node, the cost for an attacker to mine a block sequence containing a bogus transaction should be higher than the value to be obtained by defrauding you. By changing how deeply buried the block must be, you can trade off confirmation time vs cost of an attack.

Programs implementing this approach can have fixed storage/network overhead in the null case of no usage, and resource usage proportional to received/sent transactions.


SOURCE: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Scalability


Great post.

I'd love to see many of these changes implemented. It seems like they would make bitcoin much more awesome. Why do you think they haven't been?

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August 23, 2014, 01:55:24 PM
 #53

Quote


Great post.

I'd love to see many of these changes implemented. It seems like they would make bitcoin much more awesome. Why do you think they haven't been?



I don't think that the devs should rush any changes. Everything needs to be tested and thought out properly before implementing.
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August 23, 2014, 01:59:45 PM
 #54

To be as big as facebook, Bitcoin needs to go up to $20,000 per coin to reach facebook market cap.


Is it possible to reach such market size? And be the sole survivor in the cryptocurrency world?

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August 23, 2014, 02:09:41 PM
 #55

I can see where they are coming from in terms of how well established they are and will be and bitcoin could top that but how can you compare the two in other terms with one being a currency and the other being a social network? With anything relating to money that people can own it's surely to be a lot bigger than Facebook for sure within time.
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August 23, 2014, 02:11:59 PM
 #56

To be as big as facebook, Bitcoin needs to go up to $20,000 per coin to reach facebook market cap.


Is it possible to reach such market size? And be the sole survivor in the cryptocurrency world?

If bitcoin truly succeeds, its value will be more than the market cap of any company.
You do not compare the total USD in circulation with the market cap of google, do you?
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August 23, 2014, 02:14:16 PM
 #57

Its a good news, people should start using BTC rather than sitting whole day on FB uselessly.
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August 23, 2014, 04:05:48 PM
 #58

I think BTC will exceed FB's market cap within the next 5 years
That's just a no-brainer for me. BTC solves a problem that is much bigger and several orders of magnitude harder to solve that what FB has accomplished.

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August 23, 2014, 05:09:26 PM
 #59

 "Bitcoin is a choice and Facebook is a need in today's world the day Bitcoin replaces the currencies and be a need,that day Facebook would be life "
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August 23, 2014, 05:12:10 PM
 #60

To be as big as facebook, Bitcoin needs to go up to $20,000 per coin to reach facebook market cap.


Is it possible to reach such market size? And be the sole survivor in the cryptocurrency world?

If bitcoin truly succeeds, its value will be more than the market cap of any company.
You do not compare the total USD in circulation with the market cap of google, do you?

With a such high market cap bitcoin's value could be more than 100.000$, nowadays this seems fantascience but in the future it could be reality.

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