Why Do You Invest?

[OgNasty]

Don't be. I don't make "investments" in BTC securities. The reason for that you'll have it if you look at the way that this securities performed over time. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you no more, you are right and I'm wrong. Just please tell me, with all your experience in finance and trading: What securitie do you recomand buying right now at it's current price? Please give me a straight answer, just name it. Thx.

I'm not an oracle.  However, if I were to make a personal investment in a Bitcoin related security at current prices, I would look for an investment in a mining pool or perhaps an organization that has a structure designed to shield it from rising costs.

I would also make sure to only invest in an entity run by someone active with a long history that I trusted.

[jonsi]

Don't be. I don't make "investments" in BTC securities. The reason for that you'll have it if you look at the way that this securities performed over time. Anyway, I don't want to argue with you no more, you are right and I'm wrong. Just please tell me, with all your experience in finance and trading: What securitie do you recomand buying right now at it's current price? Please give me a straight answer, just name it. Thx.

I'm not an oracle.  However, if I were to make a personal investment in a Bitcoin related security at current prices, I would look for an investment in a mining pool or perhaps an organization that has a structure designed to shield it from rising costs.

I would also make sure to only invest in an entity run by someone active with a long history that I trusted.

Yes, I get it. No answer after all this statments about financial education and experience and whatever you said. I didn't asked you to be an oracle, just to say one name that you think it's worth buying right now. I admited you are right and know what you're talking about allready, I'll take your word for it. The fact that you are unable to give a straight answer makes me to think otherwise (and maybe not just me, this is usually happens when you start to spin around your tail). My answer is straight and was from the begining (with my limited knowledge): there is none that's worth investing. You contradicted me in every way possible and showed your superioriti in finance and investments but in the end you can't give a simple answer. So tipic on this forum.

-edit-
   So please, just say the securiti that, in your opinion (just your opinion to be clear, I'm sure you have a very strong opinion after all those economy lessons), worth buying right now. That's it, just one name (or more if you think there are more that's worth buying right now).
-edit-

[OgNasty]

Yes, I get it. No answer after all this statments about financial education and experience and whatever you said. I didn't asked you to be an oracle, just to say one name that you think it's worth buying right now. I admited you are right and know what you're talking about allready, I'll take your word for it. The fact that you are unable to give a straight answer makes me to think otherwise (and maybe not just me, this is usually happens when you start to spin around your tail)

I'm not unable.  I'm unwilling.  There is a difference.  I won't bother you with details of licenses and fiduciary duties, blah, blah, blah...  Instead I will just say that any recommendation I gave could be viewed as a conflict of interest due to my affiliation with something that could be irrationally misconstrued as a security.  Therefore, I am not willing to give you a recommendation on a specific investment, only to educate you so that you may be better prepared to choose one for yourself.

[jonsi]

I'll go to sleep now. Thank you OgNasty that in your vague answer had described a securiti that doesn't exist so confirming that there is none to invest at the moment at their curent prices, witch exactly what this thread is about. It would be best for you in the future not to engage in contradictions and lectures just for the sake of contradicting when in the end you can't give a straight answer to a straight question.
Have a great day everyone.

[OgNasty]

I'll go to sleep now. Thank you OgNasty that in your vague answer had described a securiti that doesn't exist so confirming that there is none to invest at the moment at their curent prices, witch exactly what this thread is about. It would be best for you in the future not to engage in contradictions and lectures just for the sake of contradicting when in the end you can't give a straight answer to a straight question.
Have a great day everyone.

Can't and won't aren't the same thing.  You're welcome and goodnight.

[nwfella]

My personal experience has pretty much been inline with OP.  Every single security I've invested in on both Havelock and CS has resulted in loss.  At first I started investing in these things because I thought I was actually helping the bitcoin ecosystem.  It turns out I've been helping the twat-waffles of the bitcoin ecosystem.  Has been one helluva learning curve.

*not calling all security owners twat-waffles here (just most), I believe occasionally there are some that legitimately try to attain profitability, I just haven't found one yet that actually has.  Really starting to doubt I'm going to find the next Bitpay or Coinbase on either of these exchanges anytime soon...not with as small a bag as I'm holding :/

[pummle]

My personal experience has pretty much been inline with OP.  Every single security I've invested in on both Havelock and CS has resulted in loss.  At first I started investing in these things because I thought I was actually helping the bitcoin ecosystem.  It turns out I've been helping the twat-waffles of the bitcoin ecosystem.  Has been one helluva learning curve.

*not calling all security owners twat-waffles here (just most), I believe occasionally there are some that legitimately try to attain profitability, I just haven't found one yet that actually has.  Really starting to doubt I'm going to find the next Bitpay or Coinbase on either of these exchanges anytime soon...not with as small a bag as I'm holding :/

If you want to bet on bitpay, you could buy shares of D.BPAY on mpex, or if you want to bet against it you could grab some shares of the upcoming F.DERP which will be available soon.

[NotLambchop]

... due to my affiliation with something that could be irrationally misconstrued as a security...

Beckons back to the days of BTCT's claim that it wasn't an exchange but a game server, "for entertainment and educational purposes only."
To be that clever...

[Germican]

This is not a good representation of the state of the security.

This guy has posted this FUD everywhere he can including multiple subreddits. Is there a lot of scams out there? Yes. Is there a lot of bad investments out there? Yes. However comparing the securities using just btc is rather poor method as the actual cost is also dependant on the USD price as well.

If your investing purely to increase your bitcoin holdings then it's unlikely to make more that what you started with unless you day trade the stocks. This is especially true if bitcoin rapidly increases in value. But like OgNasty has indicated bitcoin is a transfer protocol. There are inherent risks and benefits with that as well. It has potential for a ton but it's all speculation still of what could be.

Now what do securities offer? They offer different things based on the security. Mining contacts, fee shares, or shares of the company for a few. This creates a new level of diversification to invest in and by being only available in btc they can skirt some financial regulations allowing them to access funding easier. It's all about purchasing power. I currently have X and want Y. How much of Y can I buy. While these securities are in bitcoin pricing everything else is tied to the USD or local currency. So if I buy 5 shares of Z company and those 5 shares at the time of purchase in btc was worth $100 if I sell those 5 shares at loss in btc but btc raised in value to the USD and now I can buy $110 with what I sold it for I profited.

The argument to that though is you could have made more money keeping it in btc in the first place,  which is completely true. But the issue is if you wanted to diversify beyond a crypto and instead into infrastructure the only way is using the purchasing power of btc at the time you bought.

For example SFI has tanked in price to 25% of the ipo price. This most likely is attributed to their loss of Gocoin, no dividends as it is a long term investment and the market activity isn't high making just a couple dumpers able to crash the market and create even more uncertainty. All while the CEOs of three of their major investments have been producing exactly what they were planning on a reasonable time frame. The head of the fund and CEOs have provided constant updates and publicity being a part of many conferences one of which just ended where announcements were made.

Now looking at this chart SFI seems to be a horrible investment when in reality your paying 0.00025 btc per share for 0.00075 of btc that has been invested in these companies. Ipo was 0.001 btc per share totaling 2000 btc. Roughly 1500 btc of that has already been invested in companies. 220 btc was the fee by the fund and the rest was meant for Gocoin. If the btc for go coin was invested in another company the amount that each share has invested increases even more.

But at last there are no dividends. Which is true however you are owning a part of those companies that may or may not be successful or may or may not produce dividends in the future. That is the risk I take long term with this investment and yes as you could tell I'm fairly well invested in them. As well the fund itself provides the business experience and networking that is needed to grow a company. For that I think the cut the fund takes is acceptable.

With securities you risk the losing out short term for potential bigger gain long term. Holding share of a company that becomes the next visa,  while a long shot, is the risk your getting with these securities. It's a huge risk but possibly even bigger reward.

As well many securities are not specific to one coin so say a fatal flaw is found in btc a company has a lot more mobility to shift to other coins compared to being stuck holding the bag.

So do due diligence, know your taking high risks and keep your self diverse and you can do well. The risk of being scammed is very high and at times is almost impossible to see (NEOBEE or Scharmbeck) but that's the risk you take.

[RiverBoatBTC]

I do not blame the security issuers I blame the Exchanges. If the exchanges did more to earn the fee's there would not be as much fraud as we see now.
It all comes down to them wanting that profit over performance. It sad and I hope someone builds a exchange to change this in the near future.

Exchanges plan is flawed they see the coin upfront as incentive and not the long term revenue. Make a legit exchange with good customer service and security I can see a mass exodus to that exchange.

Cryptostocks- they seem swamped and unable to carry out simple duties as returning average customers emails. When informed of a scam they do nothing about it, if the security owner sends them a email they just say ok.

Havelock- They take paper work and ask you about your security but the really do not dig deep. I bet you BTC I could get a fraud security up on havelock with out a problem.

MPEX- Think the owner will be sent to the US to serve a prison term due to his taunting of the US gov. They take that shit serious and will drop everything just to say they got you.

[Germican]

I do not blame the security issuers I blame the Exchanges. If the exchanges did more to earn the fee's there would not be as much fraud as we see now.
It all comes down to them wanting that profit over performance. It sad and I hope someone builds a exchange to change this in the near future.

This is exactly the issue with the market right now. There is no regulations in place to protect consumers. The exchanges are a business and need to profit to keep alive but when times become rough they need to increase revenue and decreasing verification or allowing a company that you think may be questionable may be your only way. Plus if it's not illegal why not it's better then closing shop today.

Until there is a more secure way to invest of you want to invest in btc companies then you just have to account the  chance of a scam into the risk profile of the security.

I think the other issue is just getting enough companies to run a profitable exchange is difficult. Add in having to establish yourself and your bound to have issues get anyone to start.

[RiverBoatBTC]

 Profitable companys have common factors.


Audits.
Assets lists.
And transaction proof.

When something like a digital business with no hard assets is built, it makes it easy to hide skimming. Hence why exchanges and coins tend to be for the most part scams.


3 Simple things most securities fail to do that a real world asset holder would want. The reason I think RENT does well is you know exactly what the holdings are. If you wanted to you could go check public record for purchase price and deed information. Want to know what it rents for or has rented for most sites like trulia keep records of that stuff after its listed in the MLS. So the only real part when he could skim would be rehab costs.
 This makes it pretty hard to pull a scam and if he did he would be screwed, He would lose his realtors license and be sued to extinction for those propertys.

[Germican]

Exactly why securities have to be assessed and why I don't like the chart here. It's the blanket statement that a start up company is a horrible investment when it's only been around less than a year (a few a bit longer). I'm going to giggle at NotLambChop when someone makes  a shit ton off a security. His view that all companies are doomed is laughable. With good research and assessment (like your view of things being public record) it reduces the risk involved. But still even then they can fail.

[bitcoin.newsfeed]

Hey NotLambchop, let's make some IPO together ! 

[pummle]

Exactly why securities have to be assessed and why I don't like the chart here. It's the blanket statement that a start up company is a horrible investment when it's only been around less than a year (a few a bit longer). I'm going to giggle at NotLambChop when someone makes  a shit ton off a security. His view that all companies are doomed is laughable. With good research and assessment (like your view of things being public record) it reduces the risk involved. But still even then they can fail.

Is he saying that all companies are doomed, or is he saying that nothing on Havelock makes any profit?

[Germican]

Exactly why securities have to be assessed and why I don't like the chart here. It's the blanket statement that a start up company is a horrible investment when it's only been around less than a year (a few a bit longer). I'm going to giggle at NotLambChop when someone makes  a shit ton off a security. His view that all companies are doomed is laughable. With good research and assessment (like your view of things being public record) it reduces the risk involved. But still even then they can fail.

Is he saying that all companies are doomed, or is he saying that nothing on Havelock makes any profit?

He's using the data to claim it's a bad idea to invest in securities on Havelock. He also isn't claiming that Havelock hasn't made profit he's saying Havelock securities haven't made more btc than initial btc investment. If you threw the numbers of purchasing power of the securities during IPO vs current purchasing power if they cashed out today the chart would be a bit different. But that wouldn't support what he's trying to do...

[NotLambchop]

...
 He also isn't claiming that Havelock hasn't made profit
...

He is.  From Havelock's most recent [what passes for] financial statement, it is operating in the red.  Havelock's own share price [partially] reflects that.  Please haz careful readings.

...
~~Havelock is timing out, will complete as soon as the site's back up
~~We're back!

Havelock Investments Fund (HavelockInvestments.com) (HIF)***:
Issue price:     ฿0.00050 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00066 second tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.000161
Highest bid:     ฿0.000151
Dividends paid: ฿0.00000037
Profit:             Lol.
...

[Germican]

...
 He also isn't claiming that Havelock hasn't made profit
...

He is.  From Havelock's most recent [what passes for] financial statement, it is operating in the red.  Havelock's own share price [partially] reflects that.  Please haz careful readings.

...
~~Havelock is timing out, will complete as soon as the site's back up
~~We're back!

Havelock Investments Fund (HavelockInvestments.com) (HIF)***:
Issue price:     ฿0.00050 first tranche
Issue price:     ฿0.00066 second tranche
Current Price:  ฿0.000161
Highest bid:     ฿0.000151
Dividends paid: ฿0.00000037
Profit:             Lol.
...

But the numbers you use are in btc. You can't show profit with out the purchasing power at the time of purchase.

The btc price affects the profit as every purchase for goods is tied to the USD not bitcoin. No company has a set price for bitcoin items it's all based on other currently accepted currency.

[RiverBoatBTC]

Here is some statistics for you
Start up fail rate.


Major Cause Percentage of Failures   Specific Pitfalls
1   Incompetence   
46 %
Emotional Pricing
        
Living too high for the business
        
Nonpayment of taxes
        
No knowledge of pricing
        
Lack of planning
        
No knowledge of financing
        
No experience in record-keeping
2   Unbalanced Experience or Lack of Managerial Experience   
30 %
Poor credit granting practices
        
Expansion too rapid
        
Inadequate borrowing practices
3   Lack of Experiences in line of goods or services   
11 %
Carry inadequate inventory
        
No knowledge of suppliers

BFL DING DING DING

       
Wasted advertising budget
5   Neglect, fraud, disaster   
1 %
 
Leading Management Mistakes
1   Going into business for the wrong reasons
2   Advice from family and friends
3   Being in the wrong place at the wrong time
4   Entrepreneur gets worn-out and/or underestimated the time requirements
5   Family pressure on time and money commitments
6   Pride
7   Lack of market awareness
8   The entrepreneure falls in love with the product/business
9   Lack of financial responsibility and awareness
10   Lack of a clear focus
11   Too much money
12   Optimistic/Realistic/Pessimistic

Business with Worst Rate of Success After Fifth Year
1   Plumbing, Heating, Air Conditioning
2   Single-Family Housing Construction
3   Grocery Stores
4   Eating Places
5   Security Brokers and Dealers
6   Local Trucking

    Businesses with Best Rate of Success After Fifth Year
1   Religious Organizations
2   Apartment Building Operators
3   Vegetable Crop Productions

So guess I will be investing in one of the weed IPO's

4   Offices & Clinics of Medical Doctors
5   Child Day Care Services

[Germican]

Here is some statistics for you
Start up fail rate.


Major Cause Percentage of Failures   Specific Pitfalls
1   Incompetence   
46 %
Emotional Pricing
        
Living too high for the business
        
Nonpayment of taxes
        
No knowledge of pricing
        
Lack of planning
        
No knowledge of financing
        
No experience in record-keeping
2   Unbalanced Experience or Lack of Managerial Experience   
30 %
Poor credit granting practices
        
Expansion too rapid
        
Inadequate borrowing practices
3   Lack of Experiences in line of goods or services   
11 %
Carry inadequate inventory
        
No knowledge of suppliers

BFL DING DING DING

       
Wasted advertising budget
5   Neglect, fraud, disaster   
1 %
 
Leading Management Mistakes
1   Going into business for the wrong reasons
2   Advice from family and friends
3   Being in the wrong place at the wrong time
4   Entrepreneur gets worn-out and/or underestimated the time requirements
5   Family pressure on time and money commitments
6   Pride
7   Lack of market awareness
8   The entrepreneure falls in love with the product/business
9   Lack of financial responsibility and awareness
10   Lack of a clear focus
11   Too much money
12   Optimistic/Realistic/Pessimistic

Business with Worst Rate of Success After Fifth Year
1   Plumbing, Heating, Air Conditioning
2   Single-Family Housing Construction
3   Grocery Stores
4   Eating Places
5   Security Brokers and Dealers
6   Local Trucking

    Businesses with Best Rate of Success After Fifth Year
1   Religious Organizations
2   Apartment Building Operators
3   Vegetable Crop Productions

So guess I will be investing in one of the weed IPO's

4   Offices & Clinics of Medical Doctors
5   Child Day Care Services

Awesome graph thanks for finding that.