Taxing bank deposits in Spain. Bad for fiat, good for bitcoin?

[jonald_fyookball]

http://www.infowars.com/spain-to-create-tax-on-bank-deposits/

Taxing bank deposits?  Ouch. Things getting
Worse in the fiat world.  Will his be good for
Bitcoin?  Will it be another Cyprus event?

[jjiimm_64]

ukraine too?
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/03/ukraine-to-impose-wealth-tax-on.html

[lihuajkl]

The interest of deposit is usually taxed. But even the deposit in Spain will be taxed, which means the money you put in bank become less. People will scare and find alternative investment rather than holding cash. BTC is claimed as asset by a few countries and appreciating gradually. It will be an appealing investment for many people.

[Bill Bisco]

The world needs bitcoin more than ever

[Bagatell]

The article being quoted is a rehash of news from last year. As far as I know (I live in Spain) it hasn't been implemented yet.

[dserrano5]

The article being quoted is a rehash of news from last year. As far as I know (I live in Spain) it hasn't been implemented yet.

+1. This was reported yesterday at zero hedge without citing any (recent) sources.

[franky1]

if the scenario does become true...

then it is good for bitcoin for the people that get paid in bitcoin and can fund their lifestyle in bitcoins. but for localbitcoins/exchang traders moving funds in and out bank accounts each day, not so much.

imagine bitstamp or bitpay that move $1mill a day. they will be taxed on every deposit they receive.. (if they were in the territory trialing this)

so dont expect large exchanges to spring up in those territories

[BitAddict]

The article being quoted is a rehash of news from last year. As far as I know (I live in Spain) it hasn't been implemented yet.

+1. This was reported yesterday at zero hedge without citing any (recent) sources.

http://www.abc.es/economia/20140627/abci-hacienda-impuesto-depositos-autonomias-201406262242.html


That tax is already approved but it is 0% right now. They didn't want to start rising it over 0% last year, while Cyprus scandal.
They are thinking rising it to 0.03% on bank deposits in Spain.

Back in december Catalunya wanted to add their own tax on bank deposits (0.3-0.5%)   , but they were not allowed by the Spanish government.

[Ilsk]

I feel sorry for Spanish people.     

[IIOII]

It will have severe consequences because of the erosion of trust. Huge sums of money will be removed from bank accounts if no restrictions are imposed.

It's not clear into which assets the fleeing capital will flow. Precious metals and real estate are among the options. A tiny part could also flow into Bitcoin. But I think the main portion will simply be kept as cash.

However I don't know if infowars.com is a reliable source at all.

[Bagatell]

I feel sorry for Spanish people.     

"They" have plans to do this everywhere, including the US and UK.

[Bagatell]

However I don't know if infowars.com is a reliable source at all.

They are just quoting Zerohedge who were quoting other sorces. The underlying info is correct.

[jonald_fyookball]

However I don't know if infowars.com is a reliable source at all.

They are just quoting Zerohedge who were quoting other sorces. The underlying info is correct.

Reading the news is a habit i've almost weaned myself off of, thanks in part
to this forum... but i guess I had a minor relapse and checked infowars
yesterday.

[dserrano5]

However I don't know if infowars.com is a reliable source at all.

They are just quoting Zerohedge who were quoting other sorces. The underlying info is correct.

But those quotes are old. BitAddict's link, though, is fresh and confirms the news.

[Ron~Popeil]

This will be coming to the US as well. Governments always look for new ways to take our money. Here they generally wait fora manufactured crisis to protect us from. Think sarbanes-oxley and dodd-frank.

[franky1]

I feel sorry for Spanish people.     

"They" have plans to do this everywhere, including the US and UK.

Yep, as far as I know legislation has already been passed for all Europpean governments to put their hand into peoples bank accounts so there doesn't need to be a repeat of the emergency measures of Cyprus. It was proposed as beginning in 2016 but moving it forward is a whole lot easier than getting it through and that's nice, comfortable, far away date.

UK law coming in soon is that if someone has over £5k in their bank and they have not paid their tax, HMRC can take th funds out... even without a court order.

[jonald_fyookball]

I feel sorry for Spanish people.     

"They" have plans to do this everywhere, including the US and UK.

Yep, as far as I know legislation has already been passed for all Europpean governments to put their hand into peoples bank accounts so there doesn't need to be a repeat of the emergency measures of Cyprus. It was proposed as beginning in 2016 but moving it forward is a whole lot easier than getting it through and that's nice, comfortable, far away date.

UK law coming in soon is that if someone has over £5k in their bank and they have not paid their tax, HMRC can take th funds out... even without a court order.

i think all these abuses of power have to be good for making people see the value of Bitcoin.

[jonald_fyookball]

I feel sorry for Spanish people.     

"They" have plans to do this everywhere, including the US and UK.

Yep, as far as I know legislation has already been passed for all Europpean governments to put their hand into peoples bank accounts so there doesn't need to be a repeat of the emergency measures of Cyprus. It was proposed as beginning in 2016 but moving it forward is a whole lot easier than getting it through and that's nice, comfortable, far away date.

UK law coming in soon is that if someone has over £5k in their bank and they have not paid their tax, HMRC can take th funds out... even without a court order.

Yes and that sounds very much like a nice, easy to digest "its only the tax evaders they're after" to make it more acceptable. I bet it will be less than 12 months before it can affect anyone and everyone once the need for a court order is sidestepped with this.

What in the world is going on ?  This seems to be the first time in history, governments gone wild
trying to rape bank accounts of the citizenry.

I had always assumed there was a fairly clear line in the sand, and the government
doesn't cross that line unless there are extreme circumstances...and if the government
starting losing their trust, people would start mattress stuffing and not use banks, etc.

Maybe now they are just saying to hell with it?  or what... i dunno.

[leopard2]

And so it begins.

Bank run in Bulgaria.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/second-bulgarian-bank-hit-by-run-on-deposits-1403883024

So far people used to think, this issue about getting shafted via bank accounts is a thingy for weird islands, with too much Russian dark money, aka Cyprus. But if other countries get hit, this will turn into an unstoppable firestorm. 

And of course the central bank blames "rumors and malicious public statements". It is not the creation of money from thin air, of course not, and also not the fractional banking, no no, it is always "rumors and malicious public statements".

My oh my. 

[Ron~Popeil]

And so it begins.

Bank run in Bulgaria.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/second-bulgarian-bank-hit-by-run-on-deposits-1403883024

So far people used to think, this issue about getting shafted via bank accounts is a thingy for weird islands, with too much Russian dark money, aka Cyprus. But if other countries get hit, this will turn into an unstoppable firestorm. 

And of course the central bank blames "rumors and malicious public statements". It is not the creation of money from thin air, of course not, and also not the fractional banking, no no, it is always "rumors and malicious public statements".

My oh my. 

This is just one of many dominoes. With the next US crisis I am moving my fiat into BTC before they can jam through bailout packages. These kind of reactive laws always have the poison buried in them.

[leopard2]

Exactly. All the bailout money is still in the system; at this point the central banks cannot get it back out; this would require higher interest rates and could trigger a deflationary shock because many entities, private and public, would default unter higher interest rates.

Everyone with a sane mind knows this.

The next decade will be very interesting....

[jonald_fyookball]

Exactly. All the bailout money is still in the system; at this point the central banks cannot get it back out; this would require higher interest rates and could trigger a deflationary shock because many entities, private and public, would default unter higher interest rates.

Everyone with a sane mind knows this.

The next decade will be very interesting....

I don't follow. Can you break it down like I'm a moron? Thx

[TEDmachine]

I think "Spaincoin" won't solve all their problems

[leopard2]

Exactly. All the bailout money is still in the system; at this point the central banks cannot get it back out; this would require higher interest rates and could trigger a deflationary shock because many entities, private and public, would default unter higher interest rates.

Everyone with a sane mind knows this.

The next decade will be very interesting....

I don't follow. Can you break it down like I'm a moron? Thx

Too much currency was released into the economy (for example to bail out banks). That money is still out there. To reduce the amount of currency in the system, interest rates would have to be increased. But higher interest rates would kill debtors: countries, companies, people, because they are all in massive debt.

Remember that our fiat currency is created when somebody takes out a loan...you go to the bank, borrow 100 000, then they create 90 000 from thin air and 10 000 from existing deposits. Fractional banking.

Currency = Debt.

Much currency = much debt.

Higher interest rates = global collapse. 

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

I feel sorry for Spanish people.     

"They" have plans to do this everywhere, including the US and UK.

Yep, as far as I know legislation has already been passed for all Europpean governments to put their hand into peoples bank accounts so there doesn't need to be a repeat of the emergency measures of Cyprus. It was proposed as beginning in 2016 but moving it forward is a whole lot easier than getting it through and that's nice, comfortable, far away date.

UK law coming in soon is that if someone has over £5k in their bank and they have not paid their tax, HMRC can take th funds out... even without a court order.

Yes and that sounds very much like a nice, easy to digest "its only the tax evaders they're after" to make it more acceptable. I bet it will be less than 12 months before it can affect anyone and everyone once the need for a court order is sidestepped with this.

What in the world is going on ?  This seems to be the first time in history, governments gone wild
trying to rape bank accounts of the citizenry.

I had always assumed there was a fairly clear line in the sand, and the government
doesn't cross that line unless there are extreme circumstances...and if the government
starting losing their trust, people would start mattress stuffing and not use banks, etc.

Maybe now they are just saying to hell with it?  or what... i dunno.

We are in extreme circumstances throughout much of the world. Many governments are facing huge deficits and their ability to repay bondholders is being put into question. The situation has calmed down somewhat over the past few years but most european governments are not far from financial ruin 

[Beliathon]

Not to be pedantic, but technically speaking, everything about fiat is bad for fiat and good for Bitcoin. Except perhaps current adoption during this historically brief transition period.

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

Not to be pedantic, but technically speaking, everything about fiat is bad for fiat and good for Bitcoin. Except perhaps current adoption during this historically brief transition period.

I would not go that far. You can spend fiat even when the power is out and when you do not have access to the internet, this is not the case with bitcoin

[Ron~Popeil]

Exactly. All the bailout money is still in the system; at this point the central banks cannot get it back out; this would require higher interest rates and could trigger a deflationary shock because many entities, private and public, would default unter higher interest rates.

Everyone with a sane mind knows this.

The next decade will be very interesting....

I don't follow. Can you break it down like I'm a moron? Thx

Too much currency was released into the economy (for example to bail out banks). That money is still out there. To reduce the amount of currency in the system, interest rates would have to be increased. But higher interest rates would kill debtors: countries, companies, people, because they are all in massive debt.

Remember that our fiat currency is created when somebody takes out a loan...you go to the bank, borrow 100 000, then they create 90 000 from thin air and 10 000 from existing deposits. Fractional banking.

Currency = Debt.

Much currency = much debt.

Higher interest rates = global collapse. 

The debt is much worse than they tell us. Real national debt in the US when you is actually north of 100 trillion. There isn't enough fiat in the world to pay that. Something has to give at some point. It nearly did in 2008. 

[hodap]

Exactly. All the bailout money is still in the system; at this point the central banks cannot get it back out; this would require higher interest rates and could trigger a deflationary shock because many entities, private and public, would default unter higher interest rates.

Everyone with a sane mind knows this.

The next decade will be very interesting....

I don't follow. Can you break it down like I'm a moron? Thx

Too much currency was released into the economy (for example to bail out banks). That money is still out there. To reduce the amount of currency in the system, interest rates would have to be increased. But higher interest rates would kill debtors: countries, companies, people, because they are all in massive debt.

Remember that our fiat currency is created when somebody takes out a loan...you go to the bank, borrow 100 000, then they create 90 000 from thin air and 10 000 from existing deposits. Fractional banking.

Currency = Debt.

Much currency = much debt.

Higher interest rates = global collapse. 

The debt is much worse than they tell us. Real national debt in the US when you is actually north of 100 trillion. There isn't enough fiat in the world to pay that. Something has to give at some point. It nearly did in 2008. 

Are people aware of this?

[galbros]

Wont this massively backfire?  Interest rates are low, no reason to even keep much money in a bank account.  Convert it to cash and put it in a safety deposit box or something?  I guess in US AML laws would work against you a bit, but still.  The solutions to our economic problems seem to be getting more repressive.

[cinder]

Wont this massively backfire?  Interest rates are low, no reason to even keep much money in a bank account.  Convert it to cash and put it in a safety deposit box or something?  I guess in US AML laws would work against you a bit, but still.  The solutions to our economic problems seem to be getting more repressive.

Gold and silver would be much safer than local currency to store wealth.

[Leina]

Wont this massively backfire?  Interest rates are low, no reason to even keep much money in a bank account.  Convert it to cash and put it in a safety deposit box or something?  I guess in US AML laws would work against you a bit, but still.  The solutions to our economic problems seem to be getting more repressive.

Gold and silver would be much safer than local currency to store wealth.

Unless the government pass a law to confiscate it.

[IIOII]

What in the world is going on ?  This seems to be the first time in history, governments gone wild
trying to rape bank accounts of the citizenry.

Governments would have done this before if bank accounts had existed in the past... look at history: In general every few decades a monetary system collapsed basically due to overspending. Having easy access to the electronic "wealth" of citizens allows the government to extend the time until collapse.

It's sad to watch these things unfold, but it's not the first time that people loose their savings.

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

Exactly. All the bailout money is still in the system; at this point the central banks cannot get it back out; this would require higher interest rates and could trigger a deflationary shock because many entities, private and public, would default unter higher interest rates.

Everyone with a sane mind knows this.

The next decade will be very interesting....

I don't follow. Can you break it down like I'm a moron? Thx

Too much currency was released into the economy (for example to bail out banks). That money is still out there. To reduce the amount of currency in the system, interest rates would have to be increased. But higher interest rates would kill debtors: countries, companies, people, because they are all in massive debt.

Remember that our fiat currency is created when somebody takes out a loan...you go to the bank, borrow 100 000, then they create 90 000 from thin air and 10 000 from existing deposits. Fractional banking.

Currency = Debt.

Much currency = much debt.

Higher interest rates = global collapse. 

The debt is much worse than they tell us. Real national debt in the US when you is actually north of 100 trillion. There isn't enough fiat in the world to pay that. Something has to give at some point. It nearly did in 2008. 

This figure is largely inflated due to the current unfunded liabilities of medicare/medicaid and social security. Once these programs get reformed this number will decrease a lot

[Bagatell]

"In January 2014, the Bundesbank joined the IMF project focusing on a “wealth tax”. In its monthly report they had announced: “In the exceptional situation of an imminent state bankruptcy a one-time capital levy could but cheaper cut than the then still relevant options” if higher taxes or drastic limitations of government spending did not meet or could not be implemented.

In the latest June 2014 working paper of the IMF, they have set forth yet another scheme – extending maturity. So you bought a 2 year note? Well, the IMF possible solution would be to simply extend the maturity. Your 2 year note now become 20 year bond. They do not default, you just can never redeem."


Expropriation Is Back - Is Christine Lagarde The Most Dangerous Woman In The World?

[Lauda]

I guess this is good for BTC. Try taxing my holdings now, heh.