You are speculators not investors

[Arghhh]

Arguing semantics on the internet... there are no winners, only losers.

[ajareselde]

Speculators, investors, gamblers, pipedreamers, innovators, left-wingers, right-wingers, crazies, libertarians, gay, straight...

Why does anyone give a shit what other people label them? If you know what you are, that's all that matters.

Does anyone really ever grow out of the 10th grade? Jesus..

I know people see bitcoin diferently when they are holding, and diferently when they cashed out, but to what point does one go when they sell and cant rebuy lower.
Answer is simple; one creates a topic to spit on others who didnt make the same mistake.
I may be wrong, but doubt it.

[hodap]

The line between investing and speculating can be blurred at times.

[Thylacine]

I'm sympathetic to OP's post.

I think spending bitcoin, building merchant acceptance, or starting and promoting services is "investing" in the protocol. Sitting on your arse waiting for a bitcoin to equal a bazillion dollars is not particularly useful, although I appreciate that the higher number of individuals holding coins the better.

Disclaimer: I'm sitting on my arse waiting for a bitcoin to equal a bazillion dollars. Rationally though, I know I could do more. Eventually I will, I'm a little time-poor at the moment.

[Gargulan]

I'm sympathetic to OP's post.

I think spending bitcoin, building merchant acceptance, or starting and promoting services is "investing" in the protocol. Sitting on your arse waiting for a bitcoin to equal a bazillion dollars is not particularly useful, although I appreciate that the higher number of individuals holding coins the better.

Disclaimer: I'm sitting on my arse waiting for a bitcoin to equal a bazillion dollars. Rationally though, I know I could do more. Eventually I will, I'm a little time-poor at the moment.

How high you expect bitcoin will go? And at what price will you consider selling?

[chesthing]

Bitcoin is an experiment not an investment. You can be "emotionally invested" in it's success which is another metaphor.

Other then that your Bitcoins (the number that represents your balance in the bitcoin wallet) will never be an investment nor will it make you an investor.
That is true even if the experiment succeeds on all accords (whatever that may be). What I think about the probability of it's success is irrelevant for the question of whenever people following the buy & hold strategy are investors or not. If it succeeds they would be very good speculators but still no investors.

There's an excellent chance you will end up suicidal when 1 BTC becomes too pricey for the avg person to buy one.
I know how that feels, when I sold thousands of XC coin bought at 4k sat at 20k sat then watched helplessly as it climbed to 500k sats. Normally I wouldn't wish that feeling on anyone, but with you I'll make an exception.

[Buffer Overflow]

Like the difference between investing in Apple stock and simply having invested the same money in Apple computer equipment which has over time become completely obsolete.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2316522/The-Apple-set-sell-250-000.html

[Erdogan]

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

[wachtwoord]

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

Buying something for the long term because you feel the market undervalues it is investing

Buying something because you think you'll be able to sell it someone else for more, irrespective of underlying value, is speculating.

I am an investor.

[Erdogan]

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

Buying something for the long term because you feel the market undervalues it is investing

Not if you buy money.

Buying something because you think you'll be able to sell it someone else for more, irrespective of underlying value, is speculating.

Only if you buy capital, and it is short time and risky, and seen as not virtuous by yourself or others.

I am an investor.

Sure.

[wachtwoord]

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

Buying something for the long term because you feel the market undervalues it is investing

Not if you buy money.

Buying something because you think you'll be able to sell it someone else for more, irrespective of underlying value, is speculating.

Only if you buy capital.

I am an investor.

Sure.

You think this because they money you have known in your life (fiat) is worthless. If you would have grown up with gold as the main form of money you would be talking differently. Bitcoin is just the same, it's as much a commodity as it is a form of money.

Furthermore, my above statements hold true for FX trading also. There is no way to buy fiat cheaper than it's actual value (a big fat zero) so everyone doing FX trading is speculating.

[Erdogan]

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

Buying something for the long term because you feel the market undervalues it is investing

Not if you buy money.

Buying something because you think you'll be able to sell it someone else for more, irrespective of underlying value, is speculating.

Only if you buy capital.

I am an investor.

Sure.

You think this because they money you have known in your life (fiat) is worthless. If you would have grown up with gold as the main form of money you would be talking differently. Bitcoin is just the same, it's as much a commodity as it is a form of money.

Furthermore, my above statements hold true for FX trading also. There is no way to buy fiat cheaper than it's actual value (a big fat zero) so everyone doing FX trading is speculating.

Sorry, edited my post. Well, we are disagreeing.

[Elwar]

If you move from the US and convert your USD to EUR are you now a speculator in euros?

[Erdogan]

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent to produce something. Either directly, via equity shares, or indirectly by lending.

Holding bitcoins is not investing, if bitcoin is money. Then it is just saving money. If it is a commodity, it is also investing.

Speculation is a derogatory name for investing. Some people regard short time, high risk investments as less virtuous than value investing. I don't. If you invest short time, high risk, you can even out the risk by investing in many companies. That is what the venture (= risk) funds do.

Buying something for the long term because you feel the market undervalues it is investing

Not if you buy money.

Buying something because you think you'll be able to sell it someone else for more, irrespective of underlying value, is speculating.

Only if you buy capital.

I am an investor.

Sure.

You think this because they money you have known in your life (fiat) is worthless. If you would have grown up with gold as the main form of money you would be talking differently. Bitcoin is just the same, it's as much a commodity as it is a form of money.

Furthermore, my above statements hold true for FX trading also. There is no way to buy fiat cheaper than it's actual value (a big fat zero) so everyone doing FX trading is speculating.

Sorry, edited my post. Well, we are disagreeing.

I try again:

Saving (derogative term: hoarding) is acquiring things or money for later use. You can sell them, without adding value (see below). You can for example buy food and hold in prospect of a catastrophe. You can trade it for something that someone else has saved. They can gain or loose value, doesn't matter. You can't add value to money, but they can appreciate in the market.

Investing is buying capital goods with the intent of making something of added value. Food can also be an investment, if you add value by repackaging, distributing or serving it.

Speculation is a derogative word for investing, meaning short time high risk, seen as non virtuous.

Looking at it again, saving can also be speculative if you take the risk that the stuff you save (money or things) will gain value in the market without the saver adding anything to it. So we partly agree.