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Author Topic: The Ultimate Dilemma  (Read 4277 times)
cryptoanarchist
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March 04, 2012, 12:41:56 AM
 #21

I have no problems with anonymous exchangers. If there is anything to learn about the American economy of the last 100 years, its that Matthew's line of reasoning is exactly what has failed. The number of regulations has increased exponentially, yet it creates just a bigger and bigger beast and the kind of mega-fraud that can only happen with state enforcement.

I don't really like people that want to start enforcing industry that is already regulated by consumer choice. No one is forced to use these services. Let the buyer beware. If you trust your money with a online business with little to no reputation, that's just stupid and you can't create safeguards to keep such a moron from losing money.

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March 04, 2012, 08:04:20 PM
 #22

Quote from: Mathew N. Wright
I was raised a Christian in Kentucky
Cool. My favorite book, A Search for God, was the result of efforts through a Christian born in Kentucky.

Cooperation
"Be ye all of one mind" - 1 Peter 3:8

Cooperation is defined as acting or operating jointly with others, concurring with others in action and effort. The best in life is ours, not at the expense of others, but in harmonious cooperation.

Know Thyself
We should let neither flattery, criticism, nor opinions of others turn us asside from those vital things for which we stand--those things that are lifting us upward and building within us that which will endure until the end. Let us turn within to see if we are being true to ourselves when temptations arise. We know that we can not be true to others unless we are first true to ourselves. We must also dare to see ourselves as others see us.

"Be what you seem. Live your creed. Be what you pray to be made."

Quote from: Mathew N. Wright
I have recently called out CoinExchanger on the forums for being the outright scammer that I truly believe they are. Their constant miss-representation, endless self-promotion, absurd anti-Bitcoin sentiment and obsession with situations that allow for no prosecution of their actions whatsoever leave no room for anything but a defensive attitude towards them.
There is plenty of information that would require further investigation, including a non existing address, anti-bitcoin comments while supposedly supporting Bitcoins, the inability to follow common legal requirements, and the possibility that he may be linked to the theft directly or indirectly.

Note that we should also not lose focus of the breach at Linode itself. It would be nice to know if this was some type of VM Breakout or an inside job.

This is a puzzle that requires solving for the strength of the Bitcoin community, to know that the community cares about serious issues that might undermine the communities achievments.

Keep digging, the truth is out there.

For Bitcoin to be a true global currency the value of BTC needs always to rise.
If BTC became the global currency & money supply = 100 Trillion then ⊅1.00 BTC = $4,761,904.76.
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LoupGaroux
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March 05, 2012, 01:16:33 AM
 #23

It is not realistic to track and block the gains of this type of crime. Once they have passed through the criminals hands, who is to judge the guilt of the next person? As to investigations? Absolutely- investigate to your hearts content, this is a community issue, and the community is free to act. If CoinExchanger or any other troglodyte thief feels that anonymity gives them a moral high ground above the law, they need to understand that the same perspective applies to due process in prosecuting the crime. So when Leo is found physically, and his life is ransomed for restitution of the value he stole, he has no grounds to complain about vigilante action, as anonymity protected him and allowed him to commit the crime, anonymity will be the path of his consequences.

Start watching behind you Leo. People who are way, way better at this game have taken notice.

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Matthew N. Wright
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March 05, 2012, 03:30:41 AM
 #24

It is not realistic to track and block the gains of this type of crime. Once they have passed through the criminals hands, who is to judge the guilt of the next person? As to investigations? Absolutely- investigate to your hearts content, this is a community issue, and the community is free to act. If CoinExchanger or any other troglodyte thief feels that anonymity gives them a moral high ground above the law, they need to understand that the same perspective applies to due process in prosecuting the crime. So when Leo is found physically, and his life is ransomed for restitution of the value he stole, he has no grounds to complain about vigilante action, as anonymity protected him and allowed him to commit the crime, anonymity will be the path of his consequences.

Start watching behind you Leo. People who are way, way better at this game have taken notice.

On Skype he seems to think he's the best at it. All he cares about is profit, and his only beef with me is that I am a potential reason why he might lose profit. Ironically, he says he doesn't care at all about professionalism.

Now let's think about that for a second-- as a businessman, if someone was in my way of conducting my business, I would either push them out of the way (which he can't because the community trusts me more than they trust him and he doesn't know where I am) or I would adapt my business to the standards demanded in the free market (which he refuses to do because he thinks anonymity is crucial to his scammy a-moral belief system).

When I told BitScalper that I was sorry (and I truly was) that I not only couldn't support him (I actually was rooting for him to succeed for a while there because he seemed to have heart) and furthermore went up against him recommending that everyone pull their money out of his dangerous business, it truly hurt me. I felt almost like betraying someone. It would be wonderful to just trust everyone, but I've learned from experience that that just doesn't work.

CoinExchanger is an even bigger idiot than anyone in this community could ever be for not believing in his pro-anonymity stance, because he recognizes that opposition against anonymity is causing him loss and yet he is not willing to adapt in order to restore gains, claiming professionalism doesn't matter.

In Korean they say "말이되?" which basically means, "Can those words come out of your mouth in your situation?".

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March 05, 2012, 04:43:22 AM
 #25

...
In Korean they say "말이되?" which basically means, "Can those words come out of your mouth in your situation?".

In English we often use the simple "WTF" to express the same concept.

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RaggedMonk
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March 06, 2012, 06:38:41 AM
 #26

I think investigating perceived wrongdoing in the Bitcoin community is a good thing.  Though the bitcoin universe is anonymous, on this forum reputation is extremely important: because with irreversible payments trust is crucial. 

We can't squeeze the fuckheads out of using bitcoin whatsoever, but we can ostracize them, dox them, and somewhat prevent them from making money off naive people.  I think it is a good thing, and I think exposing fuckheads is actually pretty fun.  We should try to set a shining example of how moralistic and conscientious bitcoin users are: not because of what the law says, but because without law it frees us to do what we believe is right, for the right reasons.

If you are having a good time, keep going.  If it is making you miserable (seems like it is causing an existential crisis), I would say let it be and do something else.

And seeing as how you are feeling down...
Matthew N. Wright
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March 06, 2012, 06:42:28 AM
 #27

I think investigating perceived wrongdoing in the Bitcoin community is a good thing.  Though the bitcoin universe is anonymous, on this forum reputation is extremely important: because with irreversible payments trust is crucial.  

We can't squeeze the fuckheads out of using bitcoin whatsoever, but we can ostracize them, dox them, and somewhat prevent them from making money off naive people.  I think it is a good thing, and I think exposing fuckheads is actually pretty fun.  We should try to set a shining example of how moralistic and conscientious bitcoin users are: not because of what the law says, but because without law it frees us to do what we believe is right, for the right reasons.

If you are having a good time, keep going.  If it is making you miserable (seems like it is causing an existential crisis), I would say let it be and do something else.

And seeing as how you are feeling down...


Epic.

EDIT: My official response:


RaggedMonk
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March 06, 2012, 07:41:27 AM
 #28

I think investigating perceived wrongdoing in the Bitcoin community is a good thing.  Though the bitcoin universe is anonymous, on this forum reputation is extremely important: because with irreversible payments trust is crucial.  

We can't squeeze the fuckheads out of using bitcoin whatsoever, but we can ostracize them, dox them, and somewhat prevent them from making money off naive people.  I think it is a good thing, and I think exposing fuckheads is actually pretty fun.  We should try to set a shining example of how moralistic and conscientious bitcoin users are: not because of what the law says, but because without law it frees us to do what we believe is right, for the right reasons.

If you are having a good time, keep going.  If it is making you miserable (seems like it is causing an existential crisis), I would say let it be and do something else.

And seeing as how you are feeling down...


Epic.

EDIT: My official response:



Nice...
muyuu
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March 06, 2012, 09:31:05 AM
 #29

Way over the top.

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drakahn
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March 06, 2012, 04:15:18 PM
 #30

I think investigating perceived wrongdoing in the Bitcoin community is a good thing.  Though the bitcoin universe is anonymous, on this forum reputation is extremely important: because with irreversible payments trust is crucial. 

We can't squeeze the fuckheads out of using bitcoin whatsoever, but we can ostracize them, dox them, and somewhat prevent them from making money off naive people.  I think it is a good thing, and I think exposing fuckheads is actually pretty fun.  We should try to set a shining example of how moralistic and conscientious bitcoin users are: not because of what the law says, but because without law it frees us to do what we believe is right, for the right reasons.

If you are having a good time, keep going.  If it is making you miserable (seems like it is causing an existential crisis), I would say let it be and do something else.

And seeing as how you are feeling down...


Epic.

EDIT: My official response:




Guy smiley looked better alive

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Ente
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March 13, 2012, 05:47:02 PM
 #31

I, personally, dont need anonymity, but value pseudonymity pretty high. I dont have to have all my transactions fully anon/pseudonymous, but want to have the choice to do so when I want. I have a "regular" wallet, which may be treaced back to me personally (mtgox, forummembers etc), and a "clean" wallet, which hopefully could not possibly be linked to me. I never even used that anonymous wallet for anything where it would make sense, I just want to have the option.
Same thing with exchanges, shops, whatever. I dont need to pay my electricity bill with anonymous bitcoins. I surely will always handle most of my bitcoins in a non-anonymous way. But the choice is mine, and that is one of the main gains from Bitcoin, in my opinion.

For companys, shops, exchanges to accept me anonymously, they may be forced to be anonymous too, at the moment. Maybe there will be new ways for that, having a fully registered and trusted company in russia, or north korea or iceland or christmas isles, which are able to handle anonymous customers.
But for now, thats why I love OTR and the idea behind it. Build up a reputation for your (many?) pseudonym.  All the pieces dont fit all together right now (OTR makes only sense on a p2p basis, exchanging through bankaccounts doesnt work anonymously etc), but eventually we will have working, trusted anonymous services.

We will as well have anonymous scamming services. Thats why we need to keep our eyes open, and investigate on our own. That doesnt mean I need to find out the real name of XY, but could mean to verify published numbers, follow transactions et cetera. If something smells fishy let others know.

In short: I prefer anonymous services over non-anonymous services. Better yet pseudonymous approaches. Build up trust, I dont make a difference if I trust a name or a nickname. This may work, and will only work with a lot of transparency. It will be a lot of work and pain, constantly, with incidents now and then. And its worth it.

Matthew, thank you for your constant, hard and valuable work you do. I wonder how much sleep you get! :-)
If all this draws too much energy from you, change it.

Ente
max in montreal
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March 13, 2012, 06:03:44 PM
 #32

you cannot hold every ones hand...we have warned and warned, but people still use paypal, people still do not back up wallets...

post your experience and let the smart people find it if they search for it. this is money, we need to be smart about it, and if you trust someone blindly they might take advantage and you might get burned.

people need to smarten up and get information before they are seperated from their money!
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March 13, 2012, 06:06:25 PM
 #33

What's to become of the poisoned stolen coins then? I sure as hell hope I don't start receiving them through bitcoinfog or something, then load a gox account and have them seize it. Or after awhile I guess they 'self clean'..?
Matthew N. Wright
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March 13, 2012, 06:36:53 PM
 #34

What's to become of the poisoned stolen coins then? I sure as hell hope I don't start receiving them through bitcoinfog or something, then load a gox account and have them seize it. Or after awhile I guess they 'self clean'..?

I don't think anyone has an issue with third-hand or fourth-hand coins, not even exchanges (so long as they investigate with due diligence).

It's the second and especially first-hand possession that should be frozen (and it already has been Wink)

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March 13, 2012, 07:33:33 PM
 #35

Says the guy with almost half a million bitcoins...

How can we take a single word you say serious or heck, even consider the meaning of them? Your mind has been compromised from the beginning...

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max in montreal
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March 13, 2012, 08:57:31 PM
 #36

Quote
It's the second and especially first-hand possession that should be frozen (and it already has been )

this is something paypal would do...


we think we are better than paypal, and create a new way of doing things....and then do as they would do. second hand posession...gimme a break.

one second someone is buying something from someone, and then they can say their money was stolen...hey...is this not a charge back?

what the fuck does frozem mean? you mean mt gox promises never to use those bitcoins ever? come on, if your shit gets stolen, its your fault. I don't ever want to see that happen just because a few whiners got their coins stolen.

as i understand it bitcoin works like cash...right? unless its stolen from you, then it works like paypal...thats not a smart idea...
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March 13, 2012, 09:52:12 PM
 #37

Says the guy with almost half a million bitcoins...

How can we take a single word you say serious or heck, even consider the meaning of them? Your mind has been compromised from the beginning...

Who has half a million bitcoins?
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March 14, 2012, 01:06:14 AM
 #38

@ RaggedMonk

TS Smiley i thought something little under 400k

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June 10, 2012, 02:24:06 AM
 #39

It seems coinexchanger/maria lost a shitload of coins/usd in the bitcoinica incident. You could say the universe has a sense of humour, no ?

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