LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders

[ttul]

where are you located?
are you licensed to business there?
are you incorporated, llc, self employed ?

Seriously? If you signed up for emails, it's right at the bottom. I believe it has been mentioned on the forums as well.

For everyone's convenience, I'll answer this again:

1. We're located in Vancouver, BC, Canada.

2. We're incorporated federally, and here's our incorporation information page:

https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=7952988&V_TOKEN=1331589171870&crpNm=largecoin&crpNmbr=&bsNmbr=

In Canada, there is only one kind of corporation - we don't have the concept of LLCs, C-corps, etc..

[1714047276]

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[1714047276]

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[cablepair]

thank you for answering it again, ive been trying to follow this thread when I can but I must of missed it - and no I did not sign up for the email.

*cablepair hugs rjk*

[cablepair]

where are you located?
are you licensed to business there?
are you incorporated, llc, self employed ?

Seriously? If you signed up for emails, it's right at the bottom. I believe it has been mentioned on the forums as well.

For everyone's convenience, I'll answer this again:

1. We're located in Vancouver, BC, Canada.

2. We're incorporated federally, and here's our incorporation information page:

https://www.ic.gc.ca/app/scr/cc/CorporationsCanada/fdrlCrpDtls.html?corpId=7952988&V_TOKEN=1331589171870&crpNm=largecoin&crpNmbr=&bsNmbr=

In Canada, there is only one kind of corporation - we don't have the concept of LLCs, C-corps, etc..

I actually looked for this answer and could not find it

what methods of payment are you accepting?

[julz]

OK then, another Q&A item:

Q: Will I get my $2250.- deposit refunded if I am not able to get the initial reduced offer price?

^this

I've already seen it said that over 30 orders have been taken. If you are sure of being able to raise $15K but not sure of $30K - you'd be crazy to order.

[Inspector 2211]

OK then, another Q&A item:

Q: Will I get my $2250.- deposit refunded if I am not able to get the initial reduced offer price?

^this

I've already seen it said that over 30 orders have been taken. If you are sure of being able to raise $15K but not sure of $30K - you'd be crazy to order.

It has nothing to do with "being able to raise" but it has all to do with
- having only $15K liquid, but $30K (or more) tied up in investments
- accepting the low, but non-zero risk of an anticipated 100% ROI, but not accepting the significant risk of an anticipated 50% annual ROI (i.e. at $30K it'll take about 2 years for the box to pay for itself)

I'm in for one at $15K but it'll be a freezing day in hell when I order one for $30K. Very simple.

[Proofer]

OK then, another Q&A item:

Q: Will I get my $2250.- deposit refunded if I am not able to get the initial reduced offer price?

^this

I've already seen it said that over 30 orders have been taken. If you are sure of being able to raise $15K but not sure of $30K - you'd be crazy to order.

This concern seems so bizarre to me that I'm concerned I may not understand it.

An order, or a deposit (submitted concurrent with or after execution of an escrow agreement) is for a unit at a specific price.  Who would be crazy enough to provide a deposit against an "order" at an unspecified price?

[Inspector 2211]

OK then, another Q&A item:

Q: Will I get my $2250.- deposit refunded if I am not able to get the initial reduced offer price?

^this

I've already seen it said that over 30 orders have been taken. If you are sure of being able to raise $15K but not sure of $30K - you'd be crazy to order.

This concern seems so bizarre to me that I'm concerned I may not understand it.

An order, or a deposit (submitted concurrent with or after execution of an escrow agreement) is for a unit at a specific price.  Who would be crazy enough to provide a deposit against an "order" at an unspecified price?

Exactly.
At some point, they will send you an invoice and ask you to wire the deposit into an escrow account.
If the invoice states "wire $4,500", I will simply not do that and thus there is no contract between me and them.
If the invoice states "wire $2,250", I will happily wire the $2,250 into their escrow account.

What I would like to see is a hardship clause in the contract, that in case of DOCUMENTED hardship situations such as serious illness, job loss, divorce, natural disaster the buyer has the right to get his deposit back instead of forfeiting it.
This would add a much-needed human warmth to this icy, windy world of Bitcoin mining.

[Proofer]

At some point, they will send you an invoice and ask you to wire the deposit into an escrow account.
If the invoice states "wire $4,500", I will simply not do that and thus there is no contract between me and them.
If the invoice states "wire $2,250", I will happily wire the $2,250 into their escrow account.

Just to be complete at the risk of being boring, any document requesting a deposit would also have to state the price of the unit(s) being purchased as well as the deposit amount.

[coblee]

When I do these kind of calculations, I try not to take price into consideration by comparing this miner with buying bitcoins. With $30k now, I can buy 6000 bitcoins today at the $5/btc price right now. According to http://www.alloscomp.com/bitcoin/calculator.php at current difficulty (1496978.59503), 20 GHash/s earns you ฿408.51. Let's also assume difficulty stays constant. So from July to December, you will earn ฿2043 (5 * ฿408.51), then mining reward halves and you only make ฿204.25 a month. So it will take an additional 19+ months (19 * ฿204.25) to make back the remaining ฿3957. So at least 24 months to breakeven.

If I had ฿6000 bitcoins today, would I use that to buy this miner? ROI is 24 months at the optimistic low end (where difficulty stays constant, 0% pool fees, and free electricity). If difficulty increases 1% a month, ROI increases to 30 months. At 2%, 39 months. At 3%, 64 months. At 4%, you would never make back your initial investment. The answer is an easy no. Warranty is only 90 days, yet you need at least 2 years to make back the money. If the hardware breaks down after a year, you are SOL.

Here's an updated calculation based on the updated price. The unit is guaranteed to deliver by 7/31/12 and the cost is $15,000 or ฿3000. Assuming difficulty is 1,496,979 and doesn't change and mining rewards halves on 12/10/12. And lastly assume no power cost.

Month	Bitcoins Mined
08/12	฿410
09/12	฿410
10/12	฿410
11/12	฿410
12/12	฿273
01/13	฿205
02/13	฿205
03/13	฿205
04/13	฿205
05/13	฿205
06/13	฿205

So you will make back your ฿3000 by around June of next year. Breakeven is ~10.5 months assuming no power costs and difficulty stays constant.

[wogaut]

OK then, another Q&A item:

Q: Will I get my $2250.- deposit refunded if I am not able to get the initial reduced offer price?

^this

I've already seen it said that over 30 orders have been taken. If you are sure of being able to raise $15K but not sure of $30K - you'd be crazy to order.

It's not the concern of being able to raise the $30k vs. $15k.
ttul wrote, although there are already more than 25 requests he encourages people to sign up and get on a "waiting list" in case someone drops out.

So if I pay $2250.- to be on a waiting list and it turns out that I won't get the $15k deal then I want my deposit back. $30k are not economical; it takes already 10 months to break even with $15k.

And if ttul says anyone not getting into the $15k deal would automatically go into the $30k bracket, this is defacto like signing a contract for an unspecified price. As others have noted, this is 'bizarre', so I was compelled to ask this naive question.

But maybe I didn't understand something there...

[finway]

Awesome.

GPU miner will be killed.

[coblee]

When you sign up using the form, you don't put down the deposit right away. When they get back to you with the escrow detail, then they will ask you to put down the deposit. I assume at that point, they will let you know whether or not you are one of the first 25 and you can decide then if you actually want to go through with the order.

[antirack]

Hmm, product announced for $30,000. After a few days you decide to give it away for $15,000 and therefore giving up $375,000 (25x$15k) because you listened to the people here on the forum and you want to build a trust base. Is this a joke?

[wogaut]

Hmm, product announced for $30,000. After a few days you decide to give it away for $15,000 and therefore giving up $375,000 (25x$15k) because you listened to the people here on the forum and you want to build a trust base. Is this a joke?

I agree, that sounds really strange. I don't want to speculate on their intentions right now, but they do really crappy marketing and market analysis.

If you look at their website, there's just one page and a PDF article, that when reading it the first time, I thought many people here at the forum could have done a _much_ better job.

Then there's a product we have absolutely no information about, the 20GH/s @ 100W for a FPGA/ASIC system is something I did already come up in my daydreams under the shower or sitting on the pot. But that's about most we know about the product (ah yes, there's a license key, so they aspire confidence that the details have been worked on  ).

And to my knowledge there's no info on the companies qualifications for that project.

I'm not saying they are out to scam us, no I actually believe they might be doing it in the best intentions.
However, just thinking about BFL, those guys were given a hard time eventhough they have much higher credentials to show, had a more believable target, more realistic specs, a better idea about the pricing, and a prototype.

But on the other hand, just thinking, if I created an ASIC that could perform with these specs, I might realize that I didn't have the cash to produce it on my own, keep it for myself and mine happily ever after. So I'd start a company for the sake of building that machine, have someone share costs and effort, and once that's covered stop selling (or sell it at a price that would also cover my mining profits) and focus on my own mining operation. So with that motivation, I wouldn't care about web page, marketing, or making a profit with selling the product. I would just be concerned with getting it off the ground, produce it and get mining.

[antirack]

That's a lot of if's wogaut

If I don't understand it wrong, they are not taking the customers money up front, so the only thing it would help them is getting a loan from the banks maybe after showing 25 escrow customers. But then why stop at 25? And if this has been worked out with the bank or another investor, you don't just decide to drop the price by $15k. It would only show them one thing, that you are total clown and best is not doing business with you. Wouldn't you agree?

I actually found that PDF on their web site very interesting a few weeks ago.

Interesting is also their estimation of 250 GH/s per rack using 5kWh power consumption they made back in Sep 2011. Now it's 4x the GH/s at 20% less power consumption (1 standard rack = 42U). They have been hard at work.

Whatever that C200 is, this will be interesting to watch.

[wogaut]

That's a lot of if's wogaut
...
Whatever that C200 is, this will be interesting to watch.

Yes, lot's of if's indeed 

Didn't mean to bash them, as a business they just present themselves so strangely that thoughts like these crossed my mind.

Definitely interesting to watch though.

I like FPGA/ASIC approaches a lot, they cut the waste, being designed especially for the task. Worked with PGAs myself back in the early days...

[DeathAndTaxes]

Hmm, product announced for $30,000. After a few days you decide to give it away for $15,000 and therefore giving up $375,000 (25x$15k) because you listened to the people here on the forum and you want to build a trust base. Is this a joke?

If they were going to sell 0 units at the ridiculous price of $30K they really didn't give up anything (much less $375K).  Sure if they would have sold out anyways it would be stupid to lower the price.  Personally I don't think that was very likely.

[RoadStress]

I wonder when are we going to see more than 90 days warranty...

[antirack]

Hmm, product announced for $30,000. After a few days you decide to give it away for $15,000 and therefore giving up $375,000 (25x$15k) because you listened to the people here on the forum and you want to build a trust base. Is this a joke?

If they were going to sell 0 units at the ridiculous price of $30K they really didn't give up anything (much less $375K).  Sure if they would have sold out anyways it would be stupid to lower the price.  Personally I don't think that was very likely.

Absolutely agree.

And now we also know that the cost to design that thing (sASIC), including cases, power, software, DRM, etc has to be below $375,000. If they need an investor I am available via PM

Here is an idea. Let somebody pay for the $375k development cost and give them 25 units. Keep 75 or more by yourself and mine happily ever after with a free sASIC that you didn't have to pay for and nobody else will get. Even more evil clever would be if you build the thing with DRM, so that the 25 units are artificially limited to 20GH/s while yours have double the GH/s. Wouldn't that be something?

[rjk]

And now we also know that the cost to design that thing (sASIC), including cases, power, software, DRM, etc has to be below $375,000. If they need an investor I am available via PM

You don't know that from the information presented here. It may very well be possible, but the first run doesn't necessarily have to break even or make a profit in order to proceed with more units.