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Question: Will you buy the LargeCoin mining appliance?
Yes
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Author Topic: LargeCoin Pricing Announced; Taking Pre-Orders  (Read 27719 times)
Herodes
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March 05, 2012, 11:48:41 PM
 #21

Interesting solution you advertise here.

I'm asking like another poster did, why will the equipment be tied to your platform ? The whole idea of bitcoin is that it shall be decentralized. If you produce a lot of this equipment, and you sit with a central control (as I understand all clients can control it from the online web-page on your server), then the decentralization goes out the window.

Although I'm very sure you're working extremely hard with this, but a lot of us are freedom loving individuals that would like to be able to govern our own equipment. Why not make it possible for the users to administrate the system from his own computer, or though any interface. If you want it to be administered through a web-interface, then this could be integrated in the unit and need not have a remote central for it to be administered?

What guarantees are there except your words that once enough units are deployed that there will be a 51% attack on the network, either by you or somebody attacking the central platform (talk about juicy target).

I sincerely hope this does not come forward as too negative, but these are questions that we really need to ask. I wish you best of luck in the continued business endeavors.

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March 05, 2012, 11:51:53 PM
 #22

Interesting solution you advertise here.

I'm asking like another poster did, why will the equipment be tied to your platform ? The whole idea of bitcoin is that it shall be decentralized. If you produce a lot of this equipment, and you sit with a central control (as I understand all clients can control it from the online web-page on your server), then the decentralization goes out the window.

Although I'm very sure you're working extremely hard with this, but a lot of us are freedom loving individuals that would like to be able to govern our own equipment. Why not make it possible for the users to administrate the system from his own computer, or though any interface. If you want it to be administered through a web-interface, then this could be integrated in the unit and need not have a remote central for it to be administered?

What guarantees are there except your words that once enough units are deployed that there will be a 51% attack on the network, either by you or somebody attacking the central platform (talk about juicy target).

I sincerely hope this does not come forward as too negative, but these are questions that we really need to ask. I wish you best of luck in the continued business endeavors.

I was about to post this, but you wrote a much better text Wink Mining with hardware that is tied to a central platform defeats the whole purpose of mining.
Herodes
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March 05, 2012, 11:55:54 PM
 #23

I was about to post this, but you wrote a much better text Wink Mining with hardware that is tied to a central platform defeats the whole purpose of mining.

Thanks, but I see that while I wrote my lengthy post, and I had a break do deal with some issues in meat space, this thread exploded with posts, and I see the OP stated that there would not be a centralized control server, but rather a token that would allow mining for a certain number of blocks.

That's too a really bad idea if you ask me. If the company can deliver what it promises, then just sell it as it is, with no restrictions.
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March 05, 2012, 11:57:23 PM
 #24

I was about to post this, but you wrote a much better text Wink Mining with hardware that is tied to a central platform defeats the whole purpose of mining.

Thanks, but I see that while I wrote my lengthy post, and I had a break do deal with some issues in meat space, this thread exploded with posts, and I see the OP stated that there would not be a centralized control server, but rather a token that would allow mining for a certain number of blocks.

That's too a really bad idea if you ask me. If the company can deliver what it promises, then just sell it as it is, with no restrictions.

Sir here is your token for the $30k investment, remember you are limited with this license to mine only 1 block.

...In the land of the stale, the man with one share is king... >> Clipse

We pay miners at 130% PPS | Signup here : Bonus PPS Pool (Please read OP to understand the current process)
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March 06, 2012, 12:02:11 AM
 #25

$30k for 20 ghash/s. The breakeven is ~15 months assuming difficulty doesn't increase AND mining rewards doesn't halve at the end of the year. And plus you won't get this until July. Realistic breakeven is closer to 5 years. Add hosted/DRM mining and 90 days warranty to this. Thanks, but I'll pass.

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March 06, 2012, 12:08:42 AM
 #26

I was about to post this, but you wrote a much better text Wink Mining with hardware that is tied to a central platform defeats the whole purpose of mining.

Thanks, but I see that while I wrote my lengthy post, and I had a break do deal with some issues in meat space, this thread exploded with posts, and I see the OP stated that there would not be a centralized control server, but rather a token that would allow mining for a certain number of blocks.

That's too a really bad idea if you ask me. If the company can deliver what it promises, then just sell it as it is, with no restrictions.
As I mentioned earlier, the purpose of this mechanism is to support a leasing model.

Do you have more details about the leasing model? I don't see any mention of it in this thread.

I have no details of the leasing model, and there won't be a leasing model until after shipment of the initial production of 25 devices. We're not Cisco, folks, we're just a group of engineers, some startup capital, and a dream to build an ASIC mining appliance. Take it for what it is.

Regarding the fears of DRM, I'd like to clear up how the system will work, so that you know the box won't be mysteriously turning itself off and demanding a ransom. When you receive the machine and turn it on, it will register itself with LargeCoin by sending a token through the Internet. When we receive final payment for delivery of the appliance, we will send you a token (electronically if the device is connected), which provides an unlimited mining license. You are free to sell the device to someone else, and so long as that token is entered, the device will mine happily until the last Bitcoin block is solved.

By all means, if you trust a startup enough to send it $30,000 before receiving the product, we'll send you the license token before it ships.

No ongoing communication is required after you have configured the license token; and, if you prefer, you don't have to connect your device to the Internet at all. There will be a way to enter the license token without having it connected to the Internet.

Does this clear up everyone's concerns about DRM?

I was about to post this, but you wrote a much better text Wink Mining with hardware that is tied to a central platform defeats the whole purpose of mining.

Thanks, but I see that while I wrote my lengthy post, and I had a break do deal with some issues in meat space, this thread exploded with posts, and I see the OP stated that there would not be a centralized control server, but rather a token that would allow mining for a certain number of blocks.

That's too a really bad idea if you ask me. If the company can deliver what it promises, then just sell it as it is, with no restrictions.

We don't want to spin multiple versions of the chip. To enable a future leasing model, we need to have control within the hardware over the capability of the appliance to mine a certain number of blocks. That means literally burning a crypto key into each chip, and then enabling verification of license keys within the chip itself.

$30k for 20 ghash/s. The breakeven is ~15 months assuming difficulty doesn't increase AND mining rewards doesn't halve at the end of the year. And plus you won't get this until July. Realistic breakeven is closer to 5 years. Add hosted/DRM mining and 90 days warranty to this. Thanks, but I'll pass.

This appliance isn't targeted at the hobby-level miner. If you have a few machines in your basement, keep on GPU mining. Chances are, you don't care about data center costs or power costs. But if you want to mine as a business, the ASIC model can't be beat in terms of profitability.
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March 06, 2012, 12:29:23 AM
 #27

$30k for 20 ghash/s. The breakeven is ~15 months assuming difficulty doesn't increase AND mining rewards doesn't halve at the end of the year. And plus you won't get this until July. Realistic breakeven is closer to 5 years. Add hosted/DRM mining and 90 days warranty to this. Thanks, but I'll pass.

This appliance isn't targeted at the hobby-level miner. If you have a few machines in your basement, keep on GPU mining. Chances are, you don't care about data center costs or power costs. But if you want to mine as a business, the ASIC model can't be beat in terms of profitability.

Ok, let's assume data center costs and power costs are $0. Mining this at 20ghash/s nets you about $2000 a month. Let's assume both bitcoin price and difficulty either don't increase or cancel each other out. So you get 5 months at $2000 a month, and when the mining rewards halves in December of this year, you start making only $1000/month. It will take 25 months to make back your initial investment.

You guys really need to rethink your strategy. Maybe leasing makes sense. But purchasing your device doesn't make any sense if it doesn't break even for 2 years (which doesn't even include the data center and power costs!)

For comparison, The BitForce Single takes 8.8 months to break even and the BitForce Rig takes 6.5 months to break even. And these 2 numbers assumes power costs $0.30 per kwh.

nmat
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March 06, 2012, 12:48:49 AM
 #28

Does this clear up everyone's concerns about DRM?
Understood. Thank you

Ok, let's assume data center costs and power costs are $0. Mining this at 20ghash/s nets you about $2000 a month. Let's assume both bitcoin price and difficulty either don't increase or cancel each other out. So you get 5 months at $2000 a month, and when the mining rewards halves in December of this year, you start making only $1000/month. It will take 25 months to make back your initial investment.

You guys really need to rethink your strategy. Maybe leasing makes sense. But purchasing your device doesn't make any sense if it doesn't break even for 2 years (which doesn't even include the data center and power costs!)

For comparison, The BitForce Single takes 8.8 months to break even and the BitForce Rig takes 6.5 months to break even. And these 2 numbers assumes power costs $0.30 per kwh.

You also assume that the reward halving has no impact in price.

Anyway, this is a choice I don't need to worry about because I don't have the money to buy it.
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March 06, 2012, 12:52:07 AM
 #29

Does this clear up everyone's concerns about DRM?
Understood. Thank you

Ok, let's assume data center costs and power costs are $0. Mining this at 20ghash/s nets you about $2000 a month. Let's assume both bitcoin price and difficulty either don't increase or cancel each other out. So you get 5 months at $2000 a month, and when the mining rewards halves in December of this year, you start making only $1000/month. It will take 25 months to make back your initial investment.

You guys really need to rethink your strategy. Maybe leasing makes sense. But purchasing your device doesn't make any sense if it doesn't break even for 2 years (which doesn't even include the data center and power costs!)

For comparison, The BitForce Single takes 8.8 months to break even and the BitForce Rig takes 6.5 months to break even. And these 2 numbers assumes power costs $0.30 per kwh.

You also assume that the reward halving has no impact in price.

Anyway, this is a choice I don't need to worry about because I don't have the money to buy it.

If you are going to assume that price doubles due to reward halving or if your calculations assume that btc price goes up a lot to reduce the break even time, then it makes more sense for you to buy BTC today and wait for the price to go up. You will make more money that way. So as far as I'm concerned, I need to assume btc price stays constant or that it only increases enough to cancel out the increase in difficulty.

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March 06, 2012, 01:09:28 AM
 #30

Just my 0.02 bitcents, the keying/licensing requirement is absurd. According to the release announcement, the rig can be controlled via a web interface hosted on their servers, which means that they have complete control over it, just as much as the buyer does.

I certainly see value in the rack formfactor and the low power usage. Apparently up to 40 can be fit in per 42U rack, which means 4KW or a little less than 40 amps at 120VAC - almost all datacenters allow that much power for the basic rack price. For me locally, 42U with 40 amps and 1 mbps of ethernet would be $600/month

I hate to keep pulling out the Rig Box as a comparison, but let's assume for the moment that they are retaining their non-rackmountable design and pulling 2500 watts each - guessing from the picture, you could probably fit 2 side-by-side on a rack shelf, and perhaps within 4U each. So that means 20 Rig Boxes per 42U rack, for a total power usage of 50KW. This is lower power density than a set of blade servers, but far more than many datacenters can handle, so yes you may have issues putting them anywhere for a reasonable price. (400 amps per rack anyone?)

To gain acceptance from the hardcore miners, you must remove the idiotic keying/licensing model, and remove the requirement for the web interface to be hosted by you. The more ideal way to do this is as follows: Since you can apparently fit 40 in a rack, allow customers to also run their own control head server (1 more U) preferably based on an open-source platform. The final U remaining would be used by a network router with 42 ports.

It appears that the keying requirement is only to support the distribution of units without payment in full, but escrow removes this need completely. I echo the question earlier - what if something happens to make it quit working? That means unnecessary mining downtime for a stupid DRM equivalent, and we have seen in the past how DRM can break spectacularly when implemented poorly.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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March 06, 2012, 01:09:53 AM
 #31

Any one want to wager on whether this comes true or not? Grin

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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nmat
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March 06, 2012, 01:19:08 AM
 #32

If you are going to assume that price doubles due to reward halving or if your calculations assume that btc price goes up a lot to reduce the break even time, then it makes more sense for you to buy BTC today and wait for the price to go up. You will make more money that way. So as far as I'm concerned, I need to assume btc price stays constant or that it only increases enough to cancel out the increase in difficulty.

I was just adding to your assumptions because it may be relevant for some people. In the bitcoin world, anything measured in years is a gamble...

....

See the post on this page explaining the DRM thing.

Any one want to wager on whether this comes true or not? Grin

Feel free to open a thread in the off-topic section to discuss and bet on that.
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March 06, 2012, 01:25:19 AM
 #33

....

See the post on this page explaining the DRM thing.
That doesn't answer the question of what if it breaks, or otherwise causes any kind of disruption for any reason. It should not be designed into the system - potential reliability concerns.

Mining Rig Extraordinaire - the Trenton BPX6806 18-slot PCIe backplane [PICS] Dead project is dead, all hail the coming of the mighty ASIC!
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March 06, 2012, 01:26:25 AM
 #34

Million bitcoin question: Who will be the escrow?

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March 06, 2012, 01:55:57 AM
 #35

Subscribing.

Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price.   If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.  Smiley

Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.
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March 06, 2012, 02:07:20 AM
 #36

Subscribing.

Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price.   If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.  Smiley

Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.

Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W.  Doesn't say much.  Reminds me of the movie Tommy Boy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8jIIPocqUU
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March 06, 2012, 03:40:39 AM
 #37

Subscribing.

Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price.   If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.  Smiley

Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.

Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W.  Doesn't say much. 

"This guarantee is in the form of partial refund."

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March 06, 2012, 03:47:26 AM
 #38

Subscribing.

Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price.   If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.  Smiley

Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.

Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W.  Doesn't say much. 

"This guarantee is in the form of partial refund."

BFL to me, "The performance specification of 50.4 gh/s @ 2,500w is guaranteed.  Should the delivered performance vary from these figures in a negative way, a pro rated refund is the agreed remedy."
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March 06, 2012, 03:52:23 AM
 #39


I think this product would need to be in the $10,000-$15,000 range to garner any real interest.
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March 06, 2012, 03:54:54 AM
 #40

Subscribing.

Also BFL last product ended up be 400% of claimed wattage and 66% of claimed hashing power at 20% higher price.   If Rig box follows that same trend it is ~30GH/s @ 10 KW and ~$35K.  Smiley

Just for reference, the rig box is guaranteed to be 50.4Gh @ 2.5Kw. This guarantee is in the form of partial refund.

Well the single was "guaranteed" to be 1.05 GH @ 20W.  Doesn't say much. 

"This guarantee is in the form of partial refund."

BFL to me, "The performance specification of 50.4 gh/s @ 2,500w is guaranteed.  Should the delivered performance vary from these figures in a negative way, a pro rated refund is the agreed remedy."

Any follow up on how it will be pro-rated.  A 1% reduction in price for a 1% miss in performance = solid.  A 1% reduction in price for every 20% missed in performance = not so solid.

Since there are two specs how is the pro-rated refund work for a miss on both.

If power is 20% higher and performance is 20% lower is it a 20% refund, 0.8*0.8 = 36% refund, or 0.2 + 0.2 = 40% refund or none of the above?

Without knowing that and spelled on in contract BFL guarantee is no better than Tommy Boy example.  They already released one guaranteed product.

Guaranteed 50 MH/W -nope (and laughable they got this one so wrong)
Guaranteed in 4 to 6 weeks - nope (not even close)
Guaranteed 1.05 GH/s - nope.
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