Inflation supports economic growth. Prove otherwise in this thread!

[tee-rex]

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

Welcome liquidity trap!

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[CoinDiver]

Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

You drank the koolaid.

You need to read my post before replying. I said no one is taking out BTC debt because it's deflationary. No shit borrowing = taking on debt. Try to follow along.

I never thought I'd actually come across someone who believed the government's inflation figures... and purported to know anything about money. Inflation is around 6% currently, when should be experiencing deflation currently.

[twiifm]

Koolaid huh?  Yeah thats cute.  Inflation is currently 2.1%.  Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?

And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics?  You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation?  Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL.  Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it

[CoinDiver]

Koolaid huh?  Yeah thats cute.  Inflation is currently 2.1%.  Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?

And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics?  You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation?  Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL.  Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it

Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Go back, read over all of our ex

Inflation, if measured in the historical manner rather than however the government decides is necessary to hide the true state of the economy, is around 6%. http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

[twiifm]

Koolaid huh?  Yeah thats cute.  Inflation is currently 2.1%.  Did you pull 6% from your butt or is it based on data?

And why you keep talking about bitcoin when im talking about economics?  You think you buying bitcoin will cause deflation?  Or people actually prefer deflation? LOL.  Theres koolaid here but im not the one drinking it

Your reading comprehension is atrocious. Go back, read over all of our ex

Inflation, if measured in the historical manner rather than however the government decides is necessary to hide the true state of the economy, is around 6%. http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/inflation-charts

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord 

[CoinDiver]

Can we limit the logical fallacies? Or are you simply interested in rhetoric?

[Erdogan]

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord 

You forgot to insert an argument.

[CoinDiver]

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord 

You forgot to insert an argument.

He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

[twiifm]

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord 

You forgot to insert an argument.

He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

[Ibian]

It just occurred to me that something very important is missing from this thread.

Define economic growth.

[theonewhowaskazu]

Evenly-Distributed inflation has no effect on the economy whatsoever aside from potentially tricking people into thinking they are wealthier than they are because they are falsely comparing their wealth today, to their wealth yesterday, using different units (i.e, currency today vs. currency yesterday). Evenly-Distributed inflation is just an accounting trick and nothing more, affects nothing in real terms.

Evenly-Distributed inflation is where a certain portion of the interest rate is effectively new money being created.

What DOES have an effect on the economy is non-evenly-distributed inflation (where some people have disproportionate access to the new money creation) and manipulated interest rates,  both of which are negative for fairly obvious reasons.

[DannyElfman]

Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

[Erdogan]

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord 

You forgot to insert an argument.

He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

MMT modern money theory. Fuck someone, I had to unnecessarily look that up. It seems to be a variant of socialism; central planning with government intervention in the free market.

[twiifm]

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  

You forgot to insert an argument.

He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

MMT modern money theory. Fuck someone, I had to unnecessarily look that up. It seems to be a variant of socialism; central planning with government intervention in the free market.

Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  

Central planning is everywhere and not distinct feature of Socialism.   MMT looks at the operational aspects of banking.  It has nothing to do w Socialism vs Capitalism or whatever b&w scenario you imagine

You won't get heterodox economics or MMT because theres no politics in it.   Theres no villain for you to get pissed  at.   Its just about studying the boring world of banking and trying to model the system to find weaknesses.  

[Ibian]

Really shadowstats?   Thats where you got your numbers from?  Oh lord  

You forgot to insert an argument.

He doesn't have one. He seems to regurgitate talking points from MSNBC, and has little understanding.

Ha ha wrong.  I don't follow mainstream economics.  I follow heterodox economics & MMT.   No need for me to argue shadowstats.  Just google "shadowsats debunked" and you will find many examples of why its shit

MMT modern money theory. Fuck someone, I had to unnecessarily look that up. It seems to be a variant of socialism; central planning with government intervention in the free market.

Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  

Central planning is everywhere and not distinct feature of Socialism.   MMT looks at the operational aspects of banking.  It has nothing to do w Socialism vs Capitalism or whatever b&w scenario you imagine

You won't get heterodox economics or MMT because theres no politics in it.   Theres no villain for you to get pissed  at.   Its just about studying the boring world of banking and trying to model the system to find weaknesses.  

Looks like you are the one peddling politics. Molyneux is about statistics, hard numbers and cause and effect. And he deals in far more than just economics, that's just a symptom of greater underlying problems.

The fundamental symptom that drives most of the current problems, including the economic ones, is the fact that the western fertility rate is too low. More people are dying than are being born, and this has been the case for about 30 years now. At the same time the baby boomers are reaching retirement age in these years. With the economic model we use (taking from those who work and giving to those who do not work) this means taxes keep going up while the benefits from those taxes become less for all of us. That's why the economy is tanking, it is mathematically unsustainable with these demographic problems.

It will take at least 50 years to reverse this trend, and it will get worse before it gets better. And that's just symptoms. The underlying causes are too complex and too longwinded to get into here. But the solution is not. The welfare system has to end. It's the only way, and it will happen against our will if we do not make the choice.

None of this is politics or personal opinion. It's just math and cause and effect.

[twiifm]

Err no.   I'm not peddling any politics.   I'm peddling academics over armchair economics.

Molyneux uses data that supports his soapboxing.   Its not "math".  If you want learn economics from sources like that go ahead.   I don't care.   Just everyone will think you're a dumbass

I dont get the connection you make between birth rate and current recession.   Everyone knows its from deleveraging MBS's after the housing bubble burst

[theonewhowaskazu]

Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

Incorrect. There has been little or no inflation throughout QE because QE has made interest rates so low that lending doesn't make sense for financial institutions. You'll notice that in supposedly riskless environments such as the treasury market or excess reserves at the fed, there has been significant "loan growth" (if you can call it that) and inflation.

[Erdogan]

twiifm: Ok not socialism, let's call it statism. The principle that some has the power to govern over others by force in violation of human rights.

[Erdogan]

"Let me guess.. You are an Anarcho-Capitalist who reads Rothbard or learned economics from Stefan Molyneux.  Roll Eyes"

I prefer that to be a mystery. The dicussion should be over my arguments (and yours).

[twiifm]

Inflation drives debt, and create long term bubbles. Deflation drives savings, and investment.

You got it backwards.  Inflation & deflation don't drive anything they are symptoms of the economy.  Booms & busts happen as business cycles.

The question is how do you deal w inflation & deflation?

... you're playing at semantics. You reiterated what I said. One "deals with" inflation by going in to debt. You "deal with" deflation by saving. When any entity holds the keys to the printing press of a fiat currency, inflation is the cause. Inflation is the increase in the monetary base. Devaluation of the unit of currency is the symptom.

Its not semantics.   Market forces are very difficult to manipulate.   Inflation/ deflation are measurements.   They are symptoms not causes.

Saving or spending can be reactive.  But how do you mandate that?   Can't force people to save or spend if they don't want to.   The only thing the Fed can do is raise/lower interest rates.  Govt can save or spend if Congress approves budget

Look up "semantics".

I didn't say anything about forcing behavior. I said individuals deal with inflation by taking on debt. Look how many people take out long term debt in bitcoin? No one that expects to pay it back!

The Fed does more than just manipulate interest rates. They buy debt that no one would, for prices that no one would pay. That's equivalent to printing money and distributing it to banks. That is direct inflation of the monetary base. The devaluation of currency is the symptom. The inflation is the cause. The last audit also showed huge loans to many well connected banks without repayment. More direct inflation. Even if there ever is a repayment, any loan the Fed creates is inflation. The deflation comes when it's repaid.

Buying bitcoin =/= taking out long term debt.  Taking on debt means borrowing

The Fed has been doing QE for a while.  Last time I check no inflation.  They want inflation but its just not happening

You have so little understanding of economics.  Your theoretical basis is wrong and you ignore what is actually happening in reality.  They can print as money as they want but if the money is stuck in the financial sector and never reaches the real economy then no inflation is going to happen.

There has been little/no inflation throughout QE because the economy was so bad that without QE there would likely have been deflation (negative inflation), so QE did in effect did raise the inflation rate.

Incorrect. There has been little or no inflation throughout QE because QE has made interest rates so low that lending doesn't make sense for financial institutions. You'll notice that in supposedly riskless environments such as the treasury market or excess reserves at the fed, there has been significant "loan growth" (if you can call it that) and inflation.

I agree and I will add to this,  that there are a lack of borrowers.   After bubble burst,  the private sector face uncertainty so that last thing they want to do is borrow.   They're too concerned about paying down balance sheet