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Author Topic: Minimum fee-free transaction (split from 0.3.21 discussion)  (Read 1710 times)
Ian Maxwell
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April 29, 2011, 03:03:53 AM
 #1

I just installed the new client and sent myself 2.71828183 BTC to celebrate. Worked fine. I wonder how long it will be until such transactions are "safe" (i.e. until a supermajority of users have the new client). Probably not too long provided we maintain a steady influx of new users.

Are there any immediate plans to lower the minimum fee-free transaction and minimum transaction fee, now that the valuation of 1 BTC has risen well above that of 2 USD? This is starting to look like a priority---I'd consider it urgent once we pass 5 USD, and actually I'd like to see it lowered by two orders of magnitude rather than one.

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April 29, 2011, 03:13:18 AM
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I just installed the new client and sent myself 2.71828183 BTC to celebrate. Worked fine. I wonder how long it will be until such transactions are "safe" (i.e. until a supermajority of users have the new client). Probably not too long provided we maintain a steady influx of new users.

My understanding is that old clients will accept the transaction without issue, but only display two decimals of precision. I could totally be wrong about this, but I believe this is the case.
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April 29, 2011, 03:40:32 AM
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Are there any immediate plans to lower the minimum fee-free transaction and minimum transaction fee, now that the valuation of 1 BTC has risen well above that of 2 USD? This is starting to look like a priority---I'd consider it urgent once we pass 5 USD, and actually I'd like to see it lowered by two orders of magnitude rather than one.

There seems to be general agreement that the 0.01 limit must be lowered.

"When?" and "To what?" remain open questions.

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April 29, 2011, 07:59:37 AM
 #4

Are there any immediate plans to lower the minimum fee-free transaction and minimum transaction fee, now that the valuation of 1 BTC has risen well above that of 2 USD? This is starting to look like a priority---I'd consider it urgent once we pass 5 USD, and actually I'd like to see it lowered by two orders of magnitude rather than one.

There seems to be general agreement that the 0.01 limit must be lowered.

"When?" and "To what?" remain open questions.


Yes, the "no/low fee" benefit being touted is quickly becoming moot.

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April 29, 2011, 10:11:11 AM
 #5

Are there any immediate plans to lower the minimum fee-free transaction and minimum transaction fee, now that the valuation of 1 BTC has risen well above that of 2 USD? This is starting to look like a priority---I'd consider it urgent once we pass 5 USD, and actually I'd like to see it lowered by two orders of magnitude rather than one.

There seems to be general agreement that the 0.01 limit must be lowered.

"When?" and "To what?" remain open questions.



Now, to a mil.

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April 29, 2011, 11:04:26 AM
 #6

Now, to a mil.
This may not be accepted unless there are new security features (such as here : http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5549.0). But indeed, it may be the time to allow a milli BTC.

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April 29, 2011, 01:59:18 PM
 #7

0.001 BTC at today's exchange rate is uncomfortably close to the estimated network-wide cost of processing a bitcoin transaction (which is about 0.001 US dollars).

The danger is a flood of micro-transactions that keep everybody's CPUs busy, driving up that hidden cost and, eventually driving people to stop running bitcoin because the costs aren't worth the benefits.


Also: lets not confuse the "how many free transactions" with "what is the smallest transaction amount you can send."


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JA37
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April 29, 2011, 02:14:26 PM
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So, a few dedicated people could send lots of small transactions to each other and force every one else to pay for their transactions?
If this is the case, couldn't a few pools start sending out rewards in 0.01 BTC and make money from the fee when finding a block?

Or perhaps I just don't know anything about how bitcoin works. That's probably the most likely thing.

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April 29, 2011, 02:27:47 PM
 #9

0.001 BTC at today's exchange rate is uncomfortably close to the estimated network-wide cost of processing a bitcoin transaction (which is about 0.001 US dollars).

The danger is a flood of micro-transactions that keep everybody's CPUs busy, driving up that hidden cost and, eventually driving people to stop running bitcoin because the costs aren't worth the benefits.


Also: lets not confuse the "how many free transactions" with "what is the smallest transaction amount you can send."

Is waiting till BTC/USD rate increases our only option?
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April 29, 2011, 02:41:51 PM
 #10

Wait what is the minimum fee-free transaction? I just sent the faucet 0.010001 BTC I tried to send another transaction of 0.01840635 to level my wallet but it said the transaction was "over the size limit".  0.01840635  is more than .01 Roll Eyes



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sending fewer than 0.01 bitcoins still requires a 0.01 bitcoin fee
theymos
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April 29, 2011, 02:48:03 PM
 #11

Wait what is the minimum fee-free transaction? I just sent the faucet 0.010001 BTC I tried to send another transaction of 0.01840635 to level my wallet but it said the transaction was "over the size limit".  0.01840635  is more than .01 Roll Eyes

The size limit is in bytes, not BTC. Higher-precision transactions are usually larger, and since they have a very low priority due to low value, they often require a fee.

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Raulo
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April 29, 2011, 03:03:15 PM
 #12

I don't know what was the original Satoshi's plan but 1MB block size limit and 0.01 BTC fee per kB is just 10BTC. There has to be something left for the miners after the block reward is lowered and finally gone. If the fee was 0.001 BTC, the standard reward would be only 1 BTC. It is a minimum fee, so it can be higher if the transactions are very popular and larger than minimal fee is required to be included for the block. But there is a balance between the users and miners and any change on fee rules must be very careful not to break this balance.


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Mike Hearn
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April 29, 2011, 03:11:03 PM
 #13

It's not hard to DoS nodes just by connecting to them and sending transactions with invalid signatures anyway.
Ian Maxwell
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April 29, 2011, 03:15:13 PM
 #14

I'd actually suggest making the transaction minimum and fee user-configurable, with only the default setting changing with version updates, so that we never have to discuss this again. You can announce a small transaction with no fee if you want, but if none of your adjacent clients will accept it you're wasting your time, and if the fee is below average you may have to wait a looong time for it be be processed. (I'd expect every client to accept any transaction once it's already in a block, however.)

If 0.001 is too low right now, 0.002 ought to be okay. If Paypal charged a half-cent transaction fee I don't think anyone would be grumbling about it.

Actually---at the moment, if a <0.01 transaction with no fee is announced, what happens? Is it rejected by the network altogether and not passed on, or is it just left unprocessed indefinitely? I suspect the former, but if it's the latter then making fees configurable shouldn't cause much chaos.

Ian Maxwell
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