BFL (Butterfly Labs) Monarch Very Late. ||Attention: Lawyers & Monarch Customers

[Syke]

From the Checkout page on the BFL website:

accept the terms of the sale outlined on the product page and understand that all sales are final. This is a pre-order. Production and delivery of my order may take 3 months or more.

Please note the "or more" part of the terms. As much as I dislike BFL and think that it is a horrible idea to pay for preorders as BFL's customers do, it appears that they are at least somewhat covered by not giving a hard upper bound timeframe as to when the machines will be ready and delivered.

Fortunately there are laws against such tactics. It is not legal to never deliver a product nor a refund.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.

"or more" is not a certain time frame, and thus the 30-day rule comes into effect.

[1714139669]

1714139669

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

From the Checkout page on the BFL website:

accept the terms of the sale outlined on the product page and understand that all sales are final. This is a pre-order. Production and delivery of my order may take 3 months or more.

Please note the "or more" part of the terms. As much as I dislike BFL and think that it is a horrible idea to pay for preorders as BFL's customers do, it appears that they are at least somewhat covered by not giving a hard upper bound timeframe as to when the machines will be ready and delivered.

Fortunately there are laws against such tactics. It is not legal to never deliver a product nor a refund.

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- you must, without being asked, promptly refund all the money the customer paid you for the unshipped merchandise.

"or more" is not a certain time frame, and thus the 30-day rule comes into effect.

If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

It appears that the 30 day rule only goes into effect if no statement is made as to when the product would ship.

I do not at all advocate for what BFL has done but I think they are covered here. They have had massive delays before without legal consequence. If they were not covered by their disclaimer then the FTC would be all over them for their previous and current delays.

[Syke]

If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

It appears that the 30 day rule only goes into effect if no statement is made as to when the product would ship.

Do you honestly believe it's legal that if you promise to ship "someday" you can hold customer funds forever and never give a refund?

[LostDutchman]

If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

It appears that the 30 day rule only goes into effect if no statement is made as to when the product would ship.

Do you honestly believe it's legal that if you promise to ship "someday" you can hold customer funds forever and never give a refund?

Well, BFL seems to beleive that and so far is doing a damned good job of it!

[DannyElfman]

If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

It appears that the 30 day rule only goes into effect if no statement is made as to when the product would ship.

Do you honestly believe it's legal that if you promise to ship "someday" you can hold customer funds forever and never give a refund?

Well, BFL seems to beleive that and so far is doing a damned good job of it!

BFL has a horrible history of massive delays with their miners. I am surprised that people are still doing business with them.

[LostDutchman]

If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

It appears that the 30 day rule only goes into effect if no statement is made as to when the product would ship.

Do you honestly believe it's legal that if you promise to ship "someday" you can hold customer funds forever and never give a refund?

Well, BFL seems to beleive that and so far is doing a damned good job of it!

BFL has a horrible history of massive delays with their miners. I am surprised that people are still doing business with them.

I know how to build a fire under BFL's ass.

Check my sig.

[jjc326]

Correct me if I'm wrong but BFL is not bankrupt right now right?  That means you can get fiat from them, heck use them get a judgment and say pay up or you're going bankrupt.

[LostDutchman]

Correct me if I'm wrong but BFL is not bankrupt right now right?  That means you can get fiat from them, heck use them get a judgment and say pay up or you're going bankrupt.

Jusgements take time and can be appealed into the next century.

I have a way to hold BFL by its nose and kick it in the ass until it squeals like the pig it is and can't get any interest in the program.

I do not understand.

[JorgeStolfi]

I have a way to hold BFL by its nose and kick it in the ass until it squeals like the pig it is and can't get any interest in the program.

That link gets me to a HostGator window that asks me to log in. Shouldn't the site have public access?

[LostDutchman]

I have a way to hold BFL by its nose and kick it in the ass until it squeals like the pig it is and can't get any interest in the program.

That link gets me to a HostGator window that asks me to log in. Shouldn't the site have public access?

Oh, you are getting a cached version of the site.  HG will hang onto those sometimes for a while.

Try this:

http://wedemandjusticefrombfl.com/

[JorgeStolfi]

http://wedemandjusticefrombfl.com/

Ugh. You mean you intend to robot-spam all kind of sites, bypassing their captchas and such?  You want to annoy a dirty scumbag who stole money from 20'000 people by wasting the time of millions of readers and administrators who have nothing to do with that?

You lost me there.  I hope the law gets to you somehow, as well as to the BFL scumbags.  Bye.

[LostDutchman]

http://wedemandjusticefrombfl.com/

Ugh. You mean you intend to robot-spam all kind of sites, bypassing their captchas and such?  You want to annoy a dirty scumbag who stole money from 20'000 people by wasting the time of millions of readers and administrators who have nothing to do with that?

You lost me there.  I hope the law gets to you somehow, as well as to the BFL scumbags.  Bye.

Sorry, Charlie!

Nothing I suggest is illegal.

Nothing.

I assure you that BFL would be far, far more than "annoyed".

The search cengines detest this sort of thing and can even de-index the target as a result and I can't think of nicer people that BFL for that to happen to.

Now, as long as we're on the subject, you're telling me that it is NOT Ok to be perhaps a bit unethical when trying to stop a firm that has:

Stolen money from customers.

Lied about delivery dates.

Defrauded thousands.

Refused refunds.

Continued lawsuits ad absurdum.

Very probably broken Federal law in failure to properly label and certify equipment.

Dug in while people's lives go down the tubes.

Who you want them to call?

Ghostbusters?

I no longer think that there is one single pair of cojones in all of this forum.

Get all namby-pamby about a little very effective Negative SEO against scumbuckets.

What?

Naw, we just tell'em about the scumbuckets.

No harm in that or laws broken and no waiting for the so-called "wheels of justice" to turn at their pitifully slow rate.

Now, let me tell you what you have done this fine Sunday morning.

I've had five cups of really strong French Roast coffee so far today and I am locked an loaded for bear.

You've lit my rockets, tthat's what you've done!

Bother people on the Internet beause "ONLY" 20,000 people have lost their hard-earned money?

NO!

I want to "BOTHER" the whole Goddamned world with it!

In those 20,000 people are those who now cannot feed their families because of the fraud of BFL.  There are those who cannot afford proper medical care for thier children because of the fraud of BFL.

There are even some who have lost their fucking homes because of the fraud of BFL and you want to stand on YOUR laurels and "principles" and be above the whole thing?

Well, you just stand on your laurels and principloes and hope to fuck that one day YOU don't all off.

You don't fight thieves and fraudsters by being a nice guy and playing by Marquis of Queensbury rules.

You get'em in a knockdown dragout, you bite off eir ears and noses, you gouge their eyes, you grab their cojones and squeeze as had as you can, you hit'em abvoe the belt; you hit'em below the belt, you kick them when they are down and you keep hitting and kicking until they PAY THE FUCK UP!

This is what my plan is about and if you don't like, quite frankly I think that you should do one of two thing:

(1) Offer a better plan.

(2) Just shut the fuck up.

Makes no difference to me.

Rant over for now.

Thanks for reading.

The Dutchman.

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

If you look at the paragraph above the one you quoted

The Rule requires that when you advertise merchandise, you must have a reasonable basis for stating or implying that you can ship within a certain time. If you make no shipment statement, you must have a reasonable basis for believing that you can ship within 30 days. That is why direct marketers sometimes call this the "30-day Rule."

It appears that the 30 day rule only goes into effect if no statement is made as to when the product would ship.

Do you honestly believe it's legal that if you promise to ship "someday" you can hold customer funds forever and never give a refund?

No it is not legal to hold customer funds "forever" however if there are legit delays in producing the product that is being sold then as far as I can tell then would be acceptable in the eyes of the law.

[Syke]

No it is not legal to hold customer funds "forever" however if there are legit delays in producing the product that is being sold then as far as I can tell then would be acceptable in the eyes of the law.

Delays must be accepted by the customer, and if the customer refuses to accept the delay, a "prompt refund" is required. Never ending delays without refunds is not legal. Period.