BitShares? interesting ! bullish

[clout]

Mining does consume vast resources for little social benefit

That benefit is de-centralized control over the network.

That's of little benefit to people who want power over the network.

-=-

Maybe I don't understand banking - as I said, I like things KISS because then I can't get scammed because there was some detail I did not properly understand.

As I said, this appears to be un-necessary complexity to meet a need that I don't have.

I can trade without needing yet another currency that is used as collateral for fake assets that represent real assets.

The complexity of this system is not something I think is safe for me nor needed for me.

You want it to streamline your playing day trader, that's fine - but it is definitely not another bitcoin.

Bitcoin has utility everyone can use, everyone can understand - it is digital cash.

This on the other hand doesn't seem to.

If your purpose in crypto-currencies is to trade them around trying to make a buck, maybe it has utility, but if your purpose in crypto-currencies is to trade them around and make a buck, then it is just a shell game to increase your fiat and that's not why I'm into crypto.

So this has no utility for me, none whatsoever. And I wouldn't be surprised if this had legal trouble, like it or not regulation of exchanges is coming (and actually is already here), if this doesn't comply then it definitely has absolutely no utility for me.

You're still confused, which is OK. Most people don't understand BitShares when they first learn about it. It's not actually complicated, although it may appear so. BitSharesX is decentralized p2p bank and exchange. The network has its own currency (most accurately described as equity) BTSX. BTSX is a crypto currency with all the same properties of Bitcoin. The difference is simply in the functionality of the network which allows you to transfer BTSX to anyone on the network anonymously within 10 seconds (block intervals are 10 seconds, and 1 block confirmation is more secure than 6 block confirmations with Bitcoin). Additionally, the network allows you to register accounts on the blockchain so there is a public directory of names that you can send to instead of sending BTSX to cryptographic public keys (public key cryptography is still used under the hood, but it is automated which allows for greater ease-of-use, and most importantly greater security). This is the current state of BitSharesX which was officially launched on July 19th. Future iterations will incorporate the market features, which allows for users to have accounts denominated in essentially whatever asset they want. Instead of thinking in terms of trading and markets think about like this. Average users who like the idea of digital currencies but do not want to be subject to their volatility can now use digital currencies that maintain the purchasing power of a desired asset. So if you have a 100 bitUSD there is someone else on the network that is essentially guaranteeing that whenever you want to convert your crypto to fiat you will have enough BTSX to get 100 USD (real USD). People that understand the implications of decentralized crypto currencies can thereby take on the short term volatility of the networks currency in order to accrue greater long term gains (if the price of the BTSX rises relative to USD, then not only do you get a gain from the increase in price but you also get more BTSX than you started off with, since it now takes less BTSX to back the 100 bitUSD).

I hope that clears things up a little bit. If not at the very least, download the BitSharesX client from bitshares-x.info and I will send you some BTSX to test out the system.

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[sidhujag]

as soon as OP sells I will buy... on the premise that he/she is always wrong since he/she is a noob unless he/she gets lucky which I dont count on... so OP just tell us when you sell so I can buy ok? thx

[r0ach]

The way I currently see Bitshares and why I'm trying to work on "fair DPOS" clone:

introducing reputation

How novel, somebody should do that.

Bitshares did it in an extremely poorly designed way by having an IPO where it's possible for the dev to to create thousands of mule accounts, send BTC in with all of them, get infinite premine + all his money back, then have plutocratic voting to determine delegates based on who owns the most coins afterwards.  The entire thing is a train wreck.  You can't get rid of mining for distribution, amongst numerous other changes they would have to do for how their system works to make it not a blatant scam.

[AliceWonder]

I've done some reading of their forums.

I don't think it is for me, but I do confess the short selling features are tempting to try.

I do however retract my scam accusation.

I don't think this is for me, not now anyway, but I was wrong to make that accusation.

[FandangledGizmo]

as soon as OP sells I will buy... on the premise that he/she is always wrong since he/she is a noob unless he/she gets lucky which I dont count on... so OP just tell us when you sell so I can buy ok? thx

Funnily OP was claiming it a scam coin a few weeks ago but he changed his mind once he looked into it a bit more which I respect.

dudes,  BitShares was debunked as bullshit earlier, why keep postig the shite?

~CfA~

AliceWonder who's perhaps smarter/credible, also suggested it was a scam, till he/she looked into it more, it's still not for him which is cool. But I respect and thank him for retracting that statement.

I've done some reading of their forums.

I don't think it is for me, but I do confess the short selling features are tempting to try.

I do however retract my scam accusation.

I don't think this is for me, not now anyway, but I was wrong to make that accusation.

I think the answer sidujag is to look into it more & come to your own decision.

[FandangledGizmo]

The way I currently see Bitshares and why I'm trying to work on "fair DPOS" clone:

introducing reputation

How novel, somebody should do that.

Bitshares did it in an extremely poorly designed way by having an IPO where it's possible for the dev to to create thousands of mule accounts, send BTC in with all of them, get infinite premine + all his money back, then have plutocratic voting to determine delegates based on who owns the most coins afterwards.  The entire thing is a train wreck.  You can't get rid of mining for distribution, amongst numerous other changes they would have to do for how their system works to make it not a blatant scam.

I personally think the allocation model was pretty fair, there was a long donation period that raised thousands of BTC via AGS, and you could also get shares by owning PTS on the day of snapshot which is POW. (If it was really short and only raised 21 BTC, I would agree more, though I actually own NXT.)

I'm not a fan of mining as a form of distribution but if that rocks your boat, BitShares-PTS is POW and is still being mined.
(For stakes in future DAC's, when the date is announced, you can buy BitShares-PTS & hold it in your wallet on the date of the 'snapshot'.)

Also unlike the other 2.0 projects out there, BitShares is not trying to create one currency/blockchain to rule them all.

So if you have a better distribution model you are encouraged to apply it on your own DPOS blockchain. The only request if you want their support and endorsement is to honour the social consensus, which is awarding 10% equity to BitShares-AGS & 10% to BitShares-PTS.

The BitShares Social Consensus is the consensus that exists between the BitShares team, BitShares shareholders, and third-parties who would like to use the BitShares toolkit for developing DACs. While anyone is free to use the BitShares toolkit, one gets fully endorsed and promoted by the BitShares team and the BitShares community only if that developer allocates 10% to those who hold BitShares PTS and 10% to those who hold BitShares AGS, as a way to honor their contributions that made the BitShares toolkit possible

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/BitShares_Social_Consensus

[Mercator]

The way I currently see Bitshares and why I'm trying to work on "fair DPOS" clone:


It seems that way to me to - I would be interested about any new DPOS clones out there  - there do not seem to be any at present.

From what I see DPOS is a fair and equitable way of securing a blockchain and TITAN sems a cool anon tool.

I'm surprised that there are so many new Cryptonote anon coins appearing daily and nothing being done about new DPOS clones.

[r0ach]

-insert fake quote of r0ach here-

It was a nice shilling attempt, but my real quote is below:

Bitshares did it in an extremely poorly designed way by having an IPO where it's possible for the dev to to create thousands of mule accounts, send BTC in with all of them, get infinite premine + all his money back, then have plutocratic voting to determine delegates based on who owns the most coins afterwards.  The entire thing is a train wreck.  You can't get rid of mining for distribution, amongst numerous other changes they would have to do for how their system works to make it not a blatant scam.

I publicly (on this forum) warned bytemaster about that while he was designing it. I stopped following his work last year. He did present at least one good idea I adopted as optimum—select the block solution with the lowest value over some interval to mitigate the orphan issue.

[clout]

-insert fake quote of r0ach here-

It was a nice shilling attempt, but my real quote is below:

Bitshares did it in an extremely poorly designed way by having an IPO where it's possible for the dev to to create thousands of mule accounts, send BTC in with all of them, get infinite premine + all his money back, then have plutocratic voting to determine delegates based on who owns the most coins afterwards.  The entire thing is a train wreck.  You can't get rid of mining for distribution, amongst numerous other changes they would have to do for how their system works to make it not a blatant scam.

I publicly (on this forum) warned bytemaster about that while he was designing it. I stopped following his work last year. He did present at least one good idea I adopted as optimum—select the block solution with the lowest value over some interval to mitigate the orphan issue.

But why would any of the devs do that if they are producing open source software...? Reputation is everything, which is why Dan and the rest of Invictus Innovation had to handle the process with the utmost transparency and fairness. If you can prove that the devs were unfair in their allocation of equity, then perhaps your clone can succeed.

[btcxyzzz]

So buying BTSX is like buying shares in Bitshares?

[brekyrself]

So buying BTSX is like buying shares in Bitshares?

BTSX = BitShares. 

[megashira1]

So buying BTSX is like buying shares in Bitshares?

BTSX is a DAC(Decentralized Autonomous Company) developed by BitShares. Bitshares will aid in the development of many future DACs.

PTS would be like buying shares in BitShares. In which case PTS will give you X% equity in all future DACs that honor PTS.

Equity in future DACs such as:

Bitshares DNS
Bitshares Voice
Bitshares Music
Bitshares Bingo
Bitshares Me
& more

[FandangledGizmo]

So buying BTSX is like buying shares in Bitshares?

BTSX is a DAC(Decentralized Autonomous Company) developed by BitShares. Bitshares will aid in the development of many future DACs.

PTS would be like buying shares in BitShares. In which case PTS will give you X% equity in all future DACs that honor PTS.

Equity in future DACs such as:

Bitshares DNS
Bitshares Voice
Bitshares Music
Bitshares Bingo
Bitshares Me
& more

Yes BTSX is the bank & exchange DAC so if you like the sound of their bank & exchange business model buy BTSX. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=675455.msg7778449#msg7778449

If you download the wallet you can see it's pretty cool, you can send anonymously and use account names like 'Superman' - if it hasn't already been registered - instead of long public keys, the transactions are also confirmed in 10 seconds. So it's already better than the other alts, but the thing that really makes it special is being added sometime in a few weeks, BitAssets.

If you like some of the businesses megashira has listed above, buy BitShares-PTS. (BitShares will announce a 'snapshot' date for each of the DAC's and as long as you hold your PTS in your wallet on the date of the snapshot you will be awarded shares in those new companies you can claim by importing your wallet when that DAC is released (Even if you have since sold the PTS.)

Feel free to ask about anything you're not clear on or visit their forums - https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php

[Gentso1]

I found this picture helpful when I first started learning about DAC's. 

[AcoinL.L.C]

BitShares will not succeed for a variety of reasons. The main being its much to complicated for the average user. Thats all there is to it, 99% of the world wouldn't understand how BitShares works, and they aren't going to take the time to learn how. Bitcoin is a simple concept. Internet money. Done.

Odds are this completely falls apart within the next several months.

[puppies]

BitShares will not succeed for a variety of reasons. The main being its much to complicated for the average user. Thats all there is to it, 99% of the world wouldn't understand how BitShares works, and they aren't going to take the time to learn how. Bitcoin is a simple concept. Internet money. Done.

Odds are this completely falls apart within the next several months.

99% of the world doesn't understand how bitcoin works.  Its enough if they can learn how to use it.  Have you played with the wallet?  Its still early, but I think its well designed and intuitive.  With some of the planned upgrades such as confirmed registration of email addresses, it will be much less daunting for beginners than bitcoin currently is. 

[r0ach]

-insert fake quote of r0ach here-

It was a nice shilling attempt, but my real quote is below:

Bitshares did it in an extremely poorly designed way by having an IPO where it's possible for the dev to to create thousands of mule accounts, send BTC in with all of them, get infinite premine + all his money back, then have plutocratic voting to determine delegates based on who owns the most coins afterwards.  The entire thing is a train wreck.  You can't get rid of mining for distribution, amongst numerous other changes they would have to do for how their system works to make it not a blatant scam.

I publicly (on this forum) warned bytemaster about that while he was designing it. I stopped following his work last year. He did present at least one good idea I adopted as optimum—select the block solution with the lowest value over some interval to mitigate the orphan issue.

But why would any of the devs do that if they are producing open source software...? Reputation is everything, which is why Dan and the rest of Invictus Innovation had to handle the process with the utmost transparency and fairness. If you can prove that the devs were unfair in their allocation of equity, then perhaps your clone can succeed.

It doesn't matter if the developer didn't do it, all that matters is that IPO offers a backdoor of letting the developer get an infinite premine since all BTC sent for the IPO go back to himself anyway.  Even if he didn't do it, he can't prove that he didn't do it, and there's no reason for anyone to take his word for it.  This is why ALL IPOs are inherently doomed to fail.  Even if you did an escrow, how do we know the dev and escrower aren't colluding?  Everything about the IPO is a scam ridden concept.

[AliceWonder]

It doesn't matter if the developer didn't do it, all that matters is that IPO offers a backdoor of letting the developer get an infinite premine since all BTC sent for the IPO go back to himself anyway.  Even if he didn't do it, he can't prove that he didn't do it, and there's no reason for anyone to take his word for it.  This is why ALL IPOs are inherently doomed to fail.  Even if you did an escrow, how do we know the dev and escrower aren't colluding?  Everything about the IPO is a scam ridden concept.

With a proper IPO, investor identity would be disclosed at least to a third party for legal reasons (in many countries at least) such as the professional escrow handling it.

I don't know (or care) how BitShares is doing it, but many of the IPOs on these forums do not appear to be doing it in such a way that there is trusted independent validation of the IPO and that does possibly pose some legal problems.

It is possible to do it right.

[megashira1]

BitShares will not succeed for a variety of reasons. The main being its much to complicated for the average user. Thats all there is to it, 99% of the world wouldn't understand how BitShares works, and they aren't going to take the time to learn how. Bitcoin is a simple concept. Internet money. Done.

Odds are this completely falls apart within the next several months.

Why does the world need to understand how it works? All they need to understand is how to use it. The majority don't understand the underpinnings of google, facebook, twitter, even the USD but they all still use it.

[Baitty]

BitShares will not succeed for a variety of reasons. The main being its much to complicated for the average user. Thats all there is to it, 99% of the world wouldn't understand how BitShares works, and they aren't going to take the time to learn how. Bitcoin is a simple concept. Internet money. Done.

Odds are this completely falls apart within the next several months.

Why does the world need to understand how it works? All they need to understand is how to use it. The majority don't understand the underpinnings of google, facebook, twitter, even the USD but they all still use it.

Well for anything that people are using they are expected to at least know a little bit how it works otherwise they could be supporting a malicious act etc you should always try to fully understand what you are using and why you are using it.