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Author Topic: p2pfoundation Bitcoin criticism  (Read 3643 times)
MoonShadow
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March 24, 2012, 01:08:57 PM
 #21

Wow, they spent a lot of effort to collect the criticisms of various persons, but none of the rebuttals.

How balanced and unbiased they are!

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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hazek
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March 24, 2012, 01:19:37 PM
 #22

Their criticisms: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin_-_Discussion

Quote
Summary of a p2p-based critique by Michel Bauwens

[...]Secondly it is a 'scarcity' based currency, subject to hoarding and wealth accumulation (only 21m bitcoins will be created, insuring a constant growth in value), that does not really change what is 'wrong' with the current currency system. [...]



OMG THE IGNORANCE. My head wants to explode when I read something so obviously wrong like this. Damn people living in fantasy land completely and utterly ignorant to what the reality really is.

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

If however you enjoyed my post: 15j781DjuJeVsZgYbDVt2NZsGrWKRWFHpp
julz
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March 24, 2012, 01:56:22 PM
 #23

As I see it - p2pfoundation is just cataloguing some possible and perceived issues with bitcoin and putting them forward for discussion.

Michael Bauwens - one of the founders of the p2pfoundation is clearly taking a positive interest in Bitcoin.
Check out some of his recent tweets:
(twitter.com/mbauwens)

Quote
mbauwens interview on @KeiserReport planned for April 4 (cc @stacyherbert); primary theme likely Bitcoin; great, it's my #1 tv favourite

Quote
bitcoin as "global reserve currency": if national currency collapses, you can switch to 'global' bitcoin, and back again;

And this gem from a couple of days ago!!   Shocked
Quote
Today, the P2P Foundation has payed its first salary in Bitcoin, the new global reserve currency based on social sovereignty cc @stuhood

@electricwings   BM-GtyD5exuDJ2kvEbr41XchkC8x9hPxdFd
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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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March 24, 2012, 02:27:35 PM
 #24

Quote
They like Ripple a lot more:

Ripple has no proof of work and the IOU system can become loaded with credit default swaps and derivatives, making it no better than the current fiat system. Bitcoin can at least be used to mitigate marginal trading. A Bitcoin-Ripple hybrid system would satisfy the "Keynesians" that accept relativistic trading, and the "Austrians" that prefer a more Newtonian economy.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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March 24, 2012, 02:31:53 PM
 #25

Don't you just love the fact that Bitcoin isn't just theory but it's an actual real ongoing experiment which is going disprove all these ridiculous fallacies and meet these boneheads who believe in them with reality?  Grin

Hahaha. Yes I think think the burden of proof falls upon the naysayers at this point. Against any criticism, advocates can simply say, "scoreboard!"  Smiley
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March 24, 2012, 03:02:31 PM
 #26

And this gem from a couple of days ago!!   Shocked
Quote
Today, the P2P Foundation has payed its first salary in Bitcoin, the new global reserve currency based on social sovereignty cc @stuhood
Wow. How awesome is that?

I like this one: https://twitter.com/#!/mbauwens/status/183165130157207552

"bitcoin's social soveignty: not created by banks, not by state, but by a group of people who trust in a protocol"

"Bitcoin had been transformed from an anarachistic challenge to the financial status quo, to the crypto spawn of Satan, fuelled by cut-throat greed and delusions of avarice." - MatTheCat
"these people don't seem to want to stop till Bitcoin is completely destroyed and left like an old cum rag in the corner of the room." - ShroomsKit
hazek
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March 24, 2012, 03:06:14 PM
 #27

Isn't it funny? They believe it's a weakness of Bitcoin that it is limited in supply and believe this will lead to it's downfall and yet they have now for the first time paid out a salary in this same currency. I wonder why that is. I wonder if the same thing would happen if Bitcoin wasn't limited in supply.  Roll Eyes

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March 24, 2012, 05:40:32 PM
 #28

Ripple is an overlay credit network, not a currency. You can't buy anything in ripples, they are just a way to settle debt and clear transactions done in dollars, euros, ounces of gold and silver, and bitcoins. The value of a ripple credit is externally imposed and not determined by the market. Should anyone try to use "unbacked" ripples, there will be instant hiperinflation since I have no problem issuing my friends infinite credit of worthless money and their transaction partners don't have any reason to doubt I will settle the debt - it's worthless.

By definition a credit network needs to work on top of a hard, scarce, fungible monetary base. If the monetary base is not scarce (leaf money), there is no point issuing credit, because there is no incentive to have it payed back. Bitcoin and Ripple are solutions for two different problems.

That being said, the non-economist who wrote tha p2pfoundation text probably refers to the dubious shape of the Bitcoin monetary base, perfectly suited for a pyramid scheme and less so for a functioning, expanding economy.
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March 24, 2012, 06:06:29 PM
 #29

Ah the old botnet argument again. Don't they realize that botnets are inferior at mining compared to serious mining rigs?

Actually they are kind of right about the botnet problem. The issue is that the flaw (which may be addressable) is not as bad even unfixed as the other options.  Nothing is perfect. 

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March 24, 2012, 11:45:16 PM
 #30

Ah the old botnet argument again. Don't they realize that botnets are inferior at mining compared to serious mining rigs?

Actually they are kind of right about the botnet problem.

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.  But he's right about botnets being inferior to serious mining operations, it takes several orders of magnitude more energy to hash at a comparable level to a high end graphics card, and when asic mining cards start being mass produced even the graphics cards are going to lose.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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March 25, 2012, 12:11:07 AM
 #31

Ah the old botnet argument again. Don't they realize that botnets are inferior at mining compared to serious mining rigs?

Actually they are kind of right about the botnet problem.

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.  But he's right about botnets being inferior to serious mining operations, it takes several orders of magnitude more energy to hash at a comparable level to a high end graphics card, and when asic mining cards start being mass produced even the graphics cards are going to lose.
Due to the nature of what we are seeing, actually I think that the 1 trans miner is using a small selected 'inventory' of one of the larger botnets that does have the appropriate ATI GPU hardware. 

lonelyminer (Peter Šurda)
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March 25, 2012, 11:11:58 AM
 #32

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.
Well, I had an idea recently. The owners of the infected computers can sue the botnet operator for the Bitcoins their computers mined. This would counteract the profitability of the botnet operation. Maybe the Bitcoin community can assist with this somehow. Let's say that we find the bots and have the owners sign up on a class action suit. Once the operator is located, he can be hit with the suit.
Raoul Duke
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March 25, 2012, 02:24:48 PM
 #33

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.
Well, I had an idea recently. The owners of the infected computers can sue the botnet operator for the Bitcoins their computers mined. This would counteract the profitability of the botnet operation. Maybe the Bitcoin community can assist with this somehow. Let's say that we find the bots and have the owners sign up on a class action suit. Once the operator is located, he can be hit with the suit.

if...
if...
if...

99% chance that's not going to happen Tongue

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March 30, 2012, 07:46:56 AM
 #34

99% chance that's not going to happen Tongue
+1

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March 30, 2012, 08:12:05 AM
 #35

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.
Well, I had an idea recently. The owners of the infected computers can sue the botnet operator for the Bitcoins their computers mined. This would counteract the profitability of the botnet operation. Maybe the Bitcoin community can assist with this somehow. Let's say that we find the bots and have the owners sign up on a class action suit. Once the operator is located, he can be hit with the suit.

if...
if...
if...

99% chance that's not going to happen Tongue
All you'd have to do is go on HackForums and have yourself get infected and watch all the C&C's that come trolling in like your unaware.

Raoul Duke
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March 30, 2012, 10:45:13 AM
 #36

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.
Well, I had an idea recently. The owners of the infected computers can sue the botnet operator for the Bitcoins their computers mined. This would counteract the profitability of the botnet operation. Maybe the Bitcoin community can assist with this somehow. Let's say that we find the bots and have the owners sign up on a class action suit. Once the operator is located, he can be hit with the suit.

if...
if...
if...

99% chance that's not going to happen Tongue
All you'd have to do is go on HackForums and have yourself get infected and watch all the C&C's that come trolling in like your unaware.

They distribute trojans for linux on hackforums? I thought skiddies only cared about winblozz Cheesy

NothinG
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March 31, 2012, 01:54:16 AM
 #37

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.
Well, I had an idea recently. The owners of the infected computers can sue the botnet operator for the Bitcoins their computers mined. This would counteract the profitability of the botnet operation. Maybe the Bitcoin community can assist with this somehow. Let's say that we find the bots and have the owners sign up on a class action suit. Once the operator is located, he can be hit with the suit.

if...
if...
if...

99% chance that's not going to happen Tongue
All you'd have to do is go on HackForums and have yourself get infected and watch all the C&C's that come trolling in like your unaware.

They distribute trojans for linux on hackforums? I thought skiddies only cared about winblozz Cheesy
Anything is possible with WINE. xD

MoonShadow
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March 31, 2012, 12:08:57 PM
 #38

It's not really a problem for bitcoin.  It's theft from the bot's actual owners, but we can't really do anything about that.
Well, I had an idea recently. The owners of the infected computers can sue the botnet operator for the Bitcoins their computers mined. This would counteract the profitability of the botnet operation. Maybe the Bitcoin community can assist with this somehow. Let's say that we find the bots and have the owners sign up on a class action suit. Once the operator is located, he can be hit with the suit.

if...
if...
if...

99% chance that's not going to happen Tongue
All you'd have to do is go on HackForums and have yourself get infected and watch all the C&C's that come trolling in like your unaware.

They distribute trojans for linux on hackforums? I thought skiddies only cared about winblozz Cheesy
Anything is possible with WINE. xD

Not if it's not installed.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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