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Author Topic: p2pfoundation Bitcoin criticism  (Read 3645 times)
herzmeister
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March 10, 2012, 08:24:07 PM
 #1

p2pfoundation is a wiki site to "study the impact of Peer to Peer technology and thought on society". They're close to the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Their overview about Bitcoin: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin

Their criticisms: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin_-_Discussion

Quote
Summary of a p2p-based critique by Michel Bauwens

[...] However, the Bitcoin design may also have some serious flaws. First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself as it can have access to networks of botnets to generate coins, in a way most people can't. Secondly it is a 'scarcity' based currency, subject to hoarding and wealth accumulation (only 21m bitcoins will be created, insuring a constant growth in value), that does not really change what is 'wrong' with the current currency system. As many so-called 'peer to peer' technologies (such as crowdfunding, crowdsourcing, etc..) it may increase wider participation and 'distribution' but without necessarily changing the dysfunctional neoliberal functioning of the market. Nevertheless, what it really shows is that socially sovereign currencies are viable, and could be created as a tool of the countereconomy, though this may require a different ruleset for its functioning. so that true 'social' peer to peer values can be integrated in the design of future 'post-Bitcoin' currencies. [...]


They like Ripple a lot more: http://p2pfoundation.net/Ripple


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March 10, 2012, 08:33:12 PM
 #2

Ah the old botnet argument again. Don't they realize that botnets are inferior at mining compared to serious mining rigs?

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March 10, 2012, 08:59:09 PM
 #3

Ah the old botnet argument again. Don't they realize that botnets are inferior at mining compared to serious mining rigs?

Oh thats just more dysfunctional thinking again. Social peer to peer values shipping out free ASIC modules to everyone's tent will cause a field day for the botnet people.

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March 10, 2012, 09:01:30 PM
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First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself...

If it was easy everyone would be doing it.  I want to become a gold miner but I don't have the machinery to buy bulldozers.  If you don't want to mine you can invest in mining contracts.  Or have miners mine the bitcoins for you.

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hazek
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March 10, 2012, 09:05:24 PM
 #5

Don't you just love the fact that Bitcoin isn't just theory but it's an actual real ongoing experiment which is going disprove all these ridiculous fallacies and meet these boneheads who believe in them with reality?  Grin

My personality type: INTJ - please forgive my weaknesses (Not naturally in tune with others feelings; may be insensitive at times, tend to respond to conflict with logic and reason, tend to believe I'm always right)

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March 11, 2012, 12:38:39 AM
 #6

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First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself...

If it was easy everyone would be doing it.  I want to become a gold miner but I don't have the machinery to buy bulldozers.  If you don't want to mine you can invest in mining contracts.  Or have miners mine the bitcoins for you.

Well the anybody can  do it opportunity is already here.  Just buy a butterfly and plug it in.  seriously, there are no more excuses.
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March 11, 2012, 12:59:04 AM
 #7

Quote
First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself...

If it was easy everyone would be doing it.  I want to become a gold miner but I don't have the machinery to buy bulldozers.  If you don't want to mine you can invest in mining contracts.  Or have miners mine the bitcoins for you.

Well the anybody can  do it opportunity is already here.  Just buy a butterfly and plug it in.  seriously, there are no more excuses.

+1... also update your blog... it's been nearly a month.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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March 11, 2012, 01:23:35 AM
 #8

Ah the old botnet argument again. Don't they realize that botnets are inferior at mining compared to serious mining rigs?
If you can do just CPU mining with Stealthcoin, take each computer maybe pushing 1Mhash/s (unless it's a dedicated server with a kickass CPU like mine and you're pushing 12-13Mhash/s on only a single core) and multiply that times how many people you've got on your botnet (roughly 1-2k, generally about a good size'd botnet).
That's close to 2Ghash/s (a good steady 500Mhash/s as account of disconnects and re-connects).

Raoul Duke
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March 11, 2012, 01:33:08 AM
 #9

They like Ripple... And that's clearly not disfunctional...  Roll Eyes Hell, I couldn't even understand wtf ripple is until now and I will surely not understand it in 1 year time, doesn't matter how much I read about it.
On the other hand, Bitcoin, I understood enough of it in a couple hours reading the wiki Smiley

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March 11, 2012, 02:44:40 AM
 #10

Don't you just love the fact that Bitcoin isn't just theory but it's an actual real ongoing experiment which is going disprove all these ridiculous fallacies and meet these boneheads who believe in them with reality?  Grin

I do.

Quote
Nevertheless, what it really shows is that socially sovereign currencies are viable, and could be created as a tool of the countereconomy, though this may require a different ruleset for its functioning. so that true 'social' peer to peer values can be integrated in the design of future 'post-Bitcoin' currencies.

I do love it. I was just thinking that too - how, without state backing, these alternative currencies won't stand a chance against bitcoin - especially any with socialist leanings.

"Democracy is the original 51% attack." - Erik Voorhees
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March 11, 2012, 02:48:06 AM
 #11

I've run into this type of thinking before. Some people want the entry for "people power money" to be so low that just sitting at home jerking off is enough for them to have a say in the new global finance. Mining Bitcoin may not be easy for everyone on the planet but it is easy enough for most,  easier than most other functions in society and if you're looking at democratizing money in reality you have to allow for abuse too.

Reading briefly on Wikipedia about Ripple it states that it depends on trust/honour. Well, that invalidates it right off. When money is concerned there can be no trust. The current banking system is already a trust network and we just saw how governments had to step in to fix that trust because the banks blew it up.

A demonstrable working system is a thousand times better than some theoretical wet dream. Everything Bitcoin has been through in the past year just shows how any system will be open to vicious attack.


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March 11, 2012, 02:53:19 AM
 #12

Why do people focus so much on the mining? Normal users don't need to get their coins that way.  Plus, the amount of coins being added to the system is not a huge portion of the total coins and is constantly getting smaller.

If people are just focused on the subsidies, they are looking at the system completely wrong.  There are plenty of ways to take part in the economy besides mining.

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March 11, 2012, 04:10:40 AM
 #13

Why do people focus so much on the mining? Normal users don't need to get their coins that way.  Plus, Although the amount of coins being added to the system is not a huge portion of the total coins, it and is constantly getting smaller.

If people are just focused on the subsidies, they are looking at the system completely wrong.  There are plenty of ways to take part in the economy besides mining.

FTFY

Currently, the monetary inflation rate for bitcoin is about 2.5% per month.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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March 11, 2012, 04:36:12 AM
 #14

I'm just going to re-iterate the point that "what is wrong with the current currency system" is not that it is "scarcity based", but that it is credit based and that all measures of credibility turn out to be completely and totally fraudulent, leading directly to massive mal-investment and systemic failure.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
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March 11, 2012, 05:36:48 AM
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I'm just going to re-iterate the point that "what is wrong with the current currency system" is not that it is "scarcity based", but that it is credit based and that all measures of credibility turn out to be completely and totally fraudulent, leading directly to massive mal-investment and systemic failure.
+1000

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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March 11, 2012, 05:58:40 AM
 #16

p2pfoundation is a wiki site to "study the impact of Peer to Peer technology and thought on society". They're close to the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Their overview about Bitcoin: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin

Their criticisms: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin_-_Discussion

Quote
Summary of a p2p-based critique by Michel Bauwens

[...] However, the Bitcoin design may also have some serious flaws. First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself as it can have access to networks of botnets to generate coins, in a way most people can't. Secondly it is a 'scarcity' based currency, subject to hoarding and wealth accumulation (only 21m bitcoins will be created, insuring a constant growth in value), that does not really change what is 'wrong' with the current currency system. As many so-called 'peer to peer' technologies (such as crowdfunding, crowdsourcing, etc..) it may increase wider participation and 'distribution' but without necessarily changing the dysfunctional neoliberal functioning of the market. Nevertheless, what it really shows is that socially sovereign currencies are viable, and could be created as a tool of the countereconomy, though this may require a different ruleset for its functioning. so that true 'social' peer to peer values can be integrated in the design of future 'post-Bitcoin' currencies. [...]


They like Ripple a lot more: http://p2pfoundation.net/Ripple



Considering the Occupy Wall Street people can't do mathematics correctly anyway, I would be suspicious of anything they say.  "We are the 99%.... of the 1%"

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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March 24, 2012, 05:25:14 AM
 #17

They like Ripple a lot more: http://p2pfoundation.net/Ripple

Maybe, but take notice of what they are actually using:

 "Today, the P2P Foundation has payed its first salary in Bitcoin, the new global reserve currency based on social sovereignty"
 - http://twitter.com/#!/mbauwens/status/183139264731688960

Bauwens had a number of tweets today regarding bitcoin:
 "bitcoin as "global reserve currency": if national currency collapses, you can switch to 'global' bitcoin, and back again;"
 "bitcoin's social soveignty: not created by banks, not by state, but by a group of people who trust in a protocol"

Stacy Herbert of RT / Max @KeiserReport will be doing an interview with him.

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March 24, 2012, 05:31:52 AM
 #18

p2pfoundation is a wiki site to "study the impact of Peer to Peer technology and thought on society". They're close to the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Their overview about Bitcoin: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin

Their criticisms: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin_-_Discussion

Quote
Summary of a p2p-based critique by Michel Bauwens

[...] However, the Bitcoin design may also have some serious flaws. First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself as it can have access to networks of botnets to generate coins, in a way most people can't. Secondly it is a 'scarcity' based currency, subject to hoarding and wealth accumulation (only 21m bitcoins will be created, insuring a constant growth in value), that does not really change what is 'wrong' with the current currency system. As many so-called 'peer to peer' technologies (such as crowdfunding, crowdsourcing, etc..) it may increase wider participation and 'distribution' but without necessarily changing the dysfunctional neoliberal functioning of the market. Nevertheless, what it really shows is that socially sovereign currencies are viable, and could be created as a tool of the countereconomy, though this may require a different ruleset for its functioning. so that true 'social' peer to peer values can be integrated in the design of future 'post-Bitcoin' currencies. [...]


They like Ripple a lot more: http://p2pfoundation.net/Ripple



Considering the Occupy Wall Street people can't do mathematics correctly anyway, I would be suspicious of anything they say.  "We are the 99%.... of the 1%"

Before mathematics they need to focus on their hygiene.

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March 24, 2012, 05:41:34 AM
 #19

p2pfoundation is a wiki site to "study the impact of Peer to Peer technology and thought on society". They're close to the Occupy Wall Street movement.

Their overview about Bitcoin: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin

Their criticisms: http://p2pfoundation.net/Bitcoin_-_Discussion

Quote
Summary of a p2p-based critique by Michel Bauwens

[...] However, the Bitcoin design may also have some serious flaws. First of all, the way it is mined privileges the technical community itself as it can have access to networks of botnets to generate coins, in a way most people can't. Secondly it is a 'scarcity' based currency, subject to hoarding and wealth accumulation (only 21m bitcoins will be created, insuring a constant growth in value), that does not really change what is 'wrong' with the current currency system. As many so-called 'peer to peer' technologies (such as crowdfunding, crowdsourcing, etc..) it may increase wider participation and 'distribution' but without necessarily changing the dysfunctional neoliberal functioning of the market. Nevertheless, what it really shows is that socially sovereign currencies are viable, and could be created as a tool of the countereconomy, though this may require a different ruleset for its functioning. so that true 'social' peer to peer values can be integrated in the design of future 'post-Bitcoin' currencies. [...]


They like Ripple a lot more: http://p2pfoundation.net/Ripple



Considering the Occupy Wall Street people can't do mathematics correctly anyway, I would be suspicious of anything they say.  "We are the 99%.... of the 1%"

Before mathematics they need to focus on their hygiene.


...and hope the effect Ripples.

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March 24, 2012, 12:57:57 PM
 #20

Lol these critics are so fail. Lol the botnet argument, so much fail. And the second critic is even more fail, once more another "bitcoin is a good start but with OUR ruleset it's better"...
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