Attack of the miners

[mhash]

Difficulty @ 109670.

1BTC = US$2.75.

Pay a 5850 off in <=21 days inc electricity.

US$20k worth of new BTC generated each day. US$600k/month!

Plenty of room for new buyers.

[SgtSpike]

2x 5850's on the way as of yesterday...    Wish I could buy more!

[mhash]

1kWh returns US$1.05.

1kWh cost = US$0.10-$0.20.

[SgtSpike]

$0.06/kwhr here... I have cheap electricities. 

[mhash]

$0.06/kwhr here... I have cheap electricities. 

17x ROI with existing hardware.

[goatpig]

The Bitcoin price is getting ridiculous, I'm expecting a metric f*** ton of new miners joining within the next weeks.

[allinvain]

$0.06/kwhr here... I have cheap electricities. 

U in Canuckistan as well like me? I got cheap electricities too! $0.06 for the win!

[carlerha]

Is there anywhere I can buy a 5850 using BTC?

[SgtSpike]

Is there anywhere I can buy a 5850 using BTC?

I'll sell you one for, oh, 60 BTC? 

[ryepdx]

The Bitcoin price is getting ridiculous, I'm expecting a metric f*** ton of new miners joining within the next weeks.

Yeah... count me among them. I just dropped a good wad of USD on a dual 6990 machine. Should be arriving sometime in the middle of next week. Wonder where the difficulty's going to go from there?

[AmpEater]

The Bitcoin price is getting ridiculous, I'm expecting a metric f*** ton of new miners joining within the next weeks.

Yeah... count me among them. I just dropped a good wad of USD on a dual 6990 machine. Should be arriving sometime in the middle of next week. Wonder where the difficulty's going to go from there?

up

[JJG]

The Bitcoin price is getting ridiculous, I'm expecting a metric f*** ton of new miners joining within the next weeks.

Yeah... count me among them. I just dropped a good wad of USD on a dual 6990 machine. Should be arriving sometime in the middle of next week. Wonder where the difficulty's going to go from there?

Difficulty is going straight up. You factored that into your rig payoff, right?

The most surprising things about reading the Bitcoin thread on overclock.net that passed 140+ pages in 2 days were:

1) There are a lot of young people out who don't pay for their electricity (dorms, living at home, etc.) for whom mining will be free
2) Most people either don't understand or choose to ignore the fact that difficulty is increasing
3) There is a surprising amount of faith in the Bitcoin exchange rate staying high and continuing to go up

[jamen]

Yeah I agree that faith is the only thing keeping bitcoins alive, I would recommend that nobody should keep a large amount of btc in their wallet, better trade it for $ or merchandise just in case of a big drop in faith once the difficulty get to high.

[allinvain]

Yeah I agree that faith is the only thing keeping bitcoins alive, I would recommend that nobody should keep a large amount of btc in their wallet, better trade it for $ or merchandise just in case of a big drop in faith once the difficulty get to high.

I don't see how a very high difficulty level will necessarily lead to a drop in "faith". The mining equation has a self-stabilizing element, so don't worry about. It will all just work itself out into the most optimal configuration.

If faith is the only thing keeping bitcoin alive then we are at a sad state of affairs. I would've thought it was the practicality, the functionality, the security, and the control over your own money that bitcoin provides which is keeping it alive. I think the biggest danger for bitcoin at this point is a massive influx of non-believers in what bitcoin is trying to accomplish for society. They will just push the price up in their greedy rush to make money and then they'll dump all their bitcoins at the first whiff of something "not to their liking." Speculators such as these are sketchy, flighty, and without a doubt will adopt a herd mentality.

[jamen]

I think the biggest danger for bitcoin at this point is a massive influx of non-believers in what bitcoin is trying to accomplish for society.

I totally agree with that, but i think that the initial rush (caused by fun, money, greed etc) could drop a little, and that the only ones left using bitcoins will be us who DO believe in the "practicality, the functionality, the security" of the bitcoin system, for our own micro transactions.

On a slightly different note, I'm not even sure I want to see big corps sell their products for CreditCards AND bitcoins, because they're not doing it for the right reasons in the first place. They don't have faith, they just wan't to get on the train alot of people are getting on.

Also there should be a limit to the amount of Ghash an individual can generate, otherwise it kinda proves your in it for the money, not for the ideals and beliefs.

We then ask ourselves do we want bitcoin to become really popular and that all major empires use it, which would then lead to them controlling it's value somehow ? I'm not so sure anymore

[jamen]

In one sentence you want to regulate it, in the next you fear regulation.

Yes which just shows that issues regarding bitcoin aren't just black or white. We have to answer some fundamental questions about the goals of btc before we actually give an answer. Right now there are lots of different people/organizations using btc for alot of different reasons, that is why there is no defite answer, yet. I understand that we can all have our own opinions, but we are talking about something global here, we must surpass our individual beliefs and boundries and look at btc from a collective point of view, then things become much more clearer and we can make better decisions on the future of btc.

I think we can at least all agree that while there is money to be made with btc, there will always be hardcore miners/corps/empires just in it for the money, that is our nature, and I'm sure the creator of btc knew that also.

[allinvain]

I think the biggest danger for bitcoin at this point is a massive influx of non-believers in what bitcoin is trying to accomplish for society.

I totally agree with that, but i think that the initial rush (caused by fun, money, greed etc) could drop a little, and that the only ones left using bitcoins will be us who DO believe in the "practicality, the functionality, the security" of the bitcoin system, for our own micro transactions.

On a slightly different note, I'm not even sure I want to see big corps sell their products for CreditCards AND bitcoins, because they're not doing it for the right reasons in the first place. They don't have faith, they just wan't to get on the train alot of people are getting on.

Also there should be a limit to the amount of Ghash an individual can generate, otherwise it kinda proves your in it for the money, not for the ideals and beliefs.

We then ask ourselves do we want bitcoin to become really popular and that all major empires use it, which would then lead to them controlling it's value somehow ? I'm not so sure anymore

Well I personally would not mind it if big corps sold their products for bitcoins also. If they did it would no doubt be because their customer demanded it. Big corporations are practical entities, they do not care for grand ideologies or any such thing. If it makes economic sense for them to accept bitcoins, they will. I think we got a long ways to go until the mega corps will have a "pay with bitcoin" button on their websites, but at the moment I don't see any harm if this were to become a reality.

Don't forget that this "train" is not supposed to be some investment asset. If a corporation treats it as such and decides that "hey we better accept bitcoin payments so we can collect some of these hot bitcoins because we'll make a ton of money selling them later on" then they'd be doing the same thing that a large portion of us are already doing - put your hand up if you bought bitcoins as a speculative investment!

As for limiting the amount of hashing power each miner can generate, well, I don't think that's a good idea, because what if a very large portion of the miners drop from the mining game, then the existing miners can't pick up the slack. I can understand your egalitarian sentiment, but the reality is that bitcoins are money and the miners are in it to make money. If bitcoins were backed by magical fairy dust and were only useful in neverland then miners would not be doing this. The only ones that would be mining would be a very small group of hardcore believers. Then again without that monetary incentive bitcoin would never have grown. It would take an ideological revolution in order for the masses to use bitcoins and to donate their resources to maintaining the network.

Technically speaking you could start your own bitcoin alternative and make it more egalitarian if you'd like.

I think there is a wide variety of reasons why people use bitcoins. Some may use it principally for the economic ideology which is represents, some just want to make money from it, some a mix of both. Bitcoin is an organic in the sense that its future is no determined by some power external to itself. So which group of bitcoin users come to predominate is up to anyone's guess. I see no problem with having a large majority of bitcoin users be average people and with a small group of ideologues at the center of the action. In the end its those motivated by ideological reasons that will propel and do great things for the bitcoin system, but the regular users are also necessary becuase it will make the bitcoin monetary system a very robust one.

If the so called major empires switched to bitcoin it would actually be a VERY good thing. Bitcoin is the digital and modern equivalent of the pre Bretton Woods Agreement gold standard. It will shackle and reign in the fiscal irresponsibility of governments. They have NO control over the bitcoin system whatsoever so they can't just go and print more money to pay for wars or to expand their empires.

I assure you governments can't control bitcoin. They can hurt it but can't really control it.

[allinvain]

In one sentence you want to regulate it, in the next you fear regulation.

Yes which just shows that issues regarding bitcoin aren't just black or white. We have to answer some fundamental questions about the goals of btc before we actually give an answer. Right now there are lots of different people/organizations using btc for alot of different reasons, that is why there is no defite answer, yet. I understand that we can all have our own opinions, but we are talking about something global here, we must surpass our individual beliefs and boundries and look at btc from a collective point of view, then things become much more clearer and we can make better decisions on the future of btc.

I think we can at least all agree that while there is money to be made with btc, there will always be hardcore miners/corps/empires just in it for the money, that is our nature, and I'm sure the creator of btc knew that also.

Well of course! Bitcoin IS MONEY, and as such its supposed to be ideologically neutral. People can use money for both good and evil. People can desire money for both noble and ignoble or banal reasons. Bitcoin, like any other medium of exchange, allows for the full expression of human individuality in the use of that medium of exchange.

[jamen]

@allinvain

I agree with you, don't worry we're on the same side. (we are just swapping ideas)

What about smaller crypto-currency networks on a community level, each with it's own miners, users, etc. Then we would have to trade with other groups/communities and establish our own value. Wouldn't that help to stabilise the value and maybe keep 'unbelievers' away ? Even if btc is uncentralized, it is still globalized, which makes it easier for big moneymakers.

[allinvain]

@allinvain

I agree with you, don't worry we're on the same side. (we are just swapping ideas)

What about smaller crypto-currency networks on a community level, each with it's own miners, users, etc. Then we would have to trade with other groups/communities and establish our own value. Wouldn't that help to stabilise the value and maybe keep 'unbelievers' away ? Even if btc is uncentralized, it is still globalized, which makes it easier for big moneymakers.

Hmm, not too sure what to think of community level cryptocurrencies. I think they would be ok for a very small group of self sufficient families but you'd run into the same problem people bartering do. In my opinion the more widely adopted a currency is the better it is. On a community level I think maybe something other than a cryptocurrency would be best ( after all you think a small community would go through the hassle of developing their own bitcoin derivative, miners, etc) - something like "social credits" or some other form of fiat person to person credit "money"