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Author Topic: Death Toll Climbs As Israel Bombards Gaza  (Read 2730 times)
u9y42
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July 12, 2014, 07:24:06 PM
 #41

If you're serious about this, address my previous comment:

Yes, i will answer it if i find the time, i come here to distract me i don't feel any obligation to answer your post...

That's fine of course, but remember that if you're answering without taking those things into consideration, it's hard to take you seriously.

First, you say that Israel kill people "suspected" of being terrorist, but how do you want to make a trial for them ? you support ground operation ?

The two options that are implicit there aren't the only possible alternatives: it isn't only either kill them, guilty or not, along with anyone nearby; or invade the territories, causing even more deaths, so that you can capture them and determine their guilt. That's a fallacy.

These attacks don't happen without there being a context to them, an underlying set of problems; so address those problems first and perhaps there will be a way to reach a peaceful settlement. As I said in previous posts, the way I see it, the best alternative would be to stop expanding settlements immediately; retreat from the occupied territories as much as possible; stop the blockade of the occupied territories to avoid an humanitarian crisis; stop these largely one sided military offensives; and return to the negotiating table.

After a peaceful settlement has been reached you can hunt for the criminals in either side to your heart's content.

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July 12, 2014, 07:32:47 PM
 #42

After a peaceful settlement has been reached you can hunt for the criminals in either side to your heart's content.

that's a fairy tail, they will disappear. If you don't want judge them just tell it...

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July 12, 2014, 07:46:40 PM
 #43

After a peaceful settlement has been reached you can hunt for the criminals in either side to your heart's content.

that's a fairy tail, they will disappear. If you don't want judge them just tell it...

Perhaps it is a fairy tale, perhaps it isn't. And on the Palestinians' side, they would also complain that there is no way that the Israeli leadership is going to be held accountable for their crimes. But what you have to ask yourself is, what alternatives are there? Killing more civilians by bombing houses of suspects, or killing a whole lot more civilians in a ground invasion? This is insane; it will never end.

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July 12, 2014, 07:53:16 PM
 #44

Perhaps it is a fairy tale, perhaps it isn't. And on the Palestinians' side, they would also complain that there is no way that the Israeli leadership is going to be held accountable for their crimes. But what you have to ask yourself is, what alternatives are there? Killing more civilians by bombing houses of suspects, or killing a whole lot more civilians in a ground invasion? This is insane; it will never end.

I purpose Hamas stop maximize the number of civilian victims. You really trust the Hamas try to avoid Palestinian victims ?

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July 12, 2014, 08:38:18 PM
 #45

Perhaps it is a fairy tale, perhaps it isn't. And on the Palestinians' side, they would also complain that there is no way that the Israeli leadership is going to be held accountable for their crimes. But what you have to ask yourself is, what alternatives are there? Killing more civilians by bombing houses of suspects, or killing a whole lot more civilians in a ground invasion? This is insane; it will never end.

I purpose Hamas stop maximize the number of civilian victims. You really trust the Hamas try to avoid Palestinian victims ?

I've never said that Hamas tries to avoid Palestinian victims, but rather that this isn't the main issue here. As I've just posted, these attacks don't happen in a vacuum; there are underlying causes to them which need to be addressed if you want peace: namely the occupation and the terrible conditions in which the people there are being kept (by Israeli officials' own words, just slightly above a humanitarian crisis).

Plus, the argument you're making there is that it's fundamentally right for Israel to kill suspects and their families; whether or not Hamas helps increase the number of victims, that's the reasoning there. Well, the UN has the following to say about this, which I had previously posted (in the post you've refused to answer):

[...] again contrary to this idea that Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has put out a statement saying that "the targeting and destruction of residential properties in Gaza is the main cause of civilian casualties". [...]

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July 12, 2014, 08:54:21 PM
 #46

That was not my point, i try to show your double-standard. Hamas can do whatever crime they want cause they "defend" the Palestinian, even kill random Israeli and Palestinian, and when tsahal try to protect Israeli they must do whatever they can to protect Palestinian too.

-Is Hamas representative of the politic Palestinian want ? what give them the right to act in the name of Palestinian ? In my TV i see a Palestinian mother crying and saying "Hamas must stop fire Israel now cause they fire back", is she used by some jews conspiracy ? Is she wrong ?

-If Hamas really defend Palestinian, why they try to maximize Palestinian victims ? Maybe they are just a brunch of terrorist funded by Arab country to keep pressure on Israel ? Why Arab country don't want negotiate fairly with Israel and ask always for something they are sure they will not get to fail the negotiation ?

-Is tsahal the regular Israeli army and their job is to defend Israeli citizen ? If it's really a war why they should find a way to judge people who don't abdicate rather than kill them ? In a war you don't kill your enemy ?

-Why the "father" of Palestinian to not grant full right to the Palestinian who live on their soil for generation ? Why they do not authorize gaza people to come rather than stay under bomb ? Maybe they don't give a fuck about Palestinian ?

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July 13, 2014, 12:12:25 AM
 #47

That was not my point, i try to show your double-standard. Hamas can do whatever crime they want cause they "defend" the Palestinian, even kill random Israeli and Palestinian, and when tsahal try to protect Israeli they must do whatever they can to protect Palestinian too.

-Is Hamas representative of the politic Palestinian want ? what give them the right to act in the name of Palestinian ? In my TV i see a Palestinian mother cry and saying "Hamas must stop fire Israel now cause they fire back", is she used by some jews conspiracy ? Is she wrong ?

[...]

-Why the "father" of Palestinian to not grant full right to the Palestinian who live in their soil for generation ? Why they do not authorize gaza people to come rather than stay under bomb ? Maybe they don't give a fuck about Palestinian ?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Hamas' actions here; as I've told you in the other thread, there is plenty of wrongdoing on every side.

But if you want to eventually find an end to this conflict, you have to look at the broader picture, and evaluating both sides here as being on equal footing is unrealistic. Israel is a far more powerful state and the occupying power here; it has far more choices at its disposal than the Palestinians. Even when it comes to the use of force, it's completely disproportionate; just look at the number of casualties on either side for example - and that not considering the victims in day to day life in the occupied territories. Basically, Palestinians don't pose an existential threat to Israel; but Israel poses an existential threat to Palestinians: for the nth time, Israel is purposefully keeping the Palestinians' situation just slightly above the level of humanitarian disaster (by their own words). This is why I'm criticizing Israel's actions; because they can actually do something to stop this conflict. On the other hand, what do you expect the Palestinians to do exactly? What can they do if they're already barely surviving day to day? The best some of them can do is launch rockets and hope to actually hit something; it's that pathetic.

-If Hamas really defend Palestinian, why they try to maximize Palestinian victim ? Maybe they are just a brunch of terrorist funded by Arab country to keep pressure on Israel ? Why Arab country don't want negotiate fairly with Israel and ask always something they are sure they will not get to fail the negotiation ?

As I wrote just in the previous post, Israel doesn't need Hamas to make it look bad, when it comes to killing civilians: "[...] again contrary to this idea that Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has put out a statement saying that 'the targeting and destruction of residential properties in Gaza is the main cause of civilian casualties'. [...]". Also, as I said in the discussion we had in the other thread, there is no other country that doesn't want peace except Israel and the US; practically every other country considers the 1967 borders as a fair starting point for the peace talks. Israel is the occupying country here, in violation of international law.

-Is tsahal the regular Israeli army and they job is to defend Israeli citizen ? If it's really a war why they should find a way to judge people who don't abdicate rather than kill them ? In a war you don't kill your enemy ?

This isn't a war, it's a slaughter; the distribution of forces is almost completely one-sided. Also, I guess I haven't stressed this enough: they aren't killing enemy combatants; they're killing people they suspect of being combatants, along with everyone nearby, which more often than not translates into family members dying as well.

Further, you continue to ignore that there are other possibilities to dealing with this, other than killing people. Remove the circumstances that give rise to the violence, namely, the occupation and the horrible conditions forced on the territories, and you'll be a lot closer to a peaceful settlement. Remember, Israel is the occupying power here.

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July 13, 2014, 08:27:20 AM
 #48

1.Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Hamas' actions here; as I've told you in the other thread, there is plenty of wrongdoing on every side.

But if you want to eventually find an end to this conflict, you have to look at the broader picture, and evaluating both sides here as being on equal footing is unrealistic. Israel is a far more powerful state and the occupying power here; it has far more choices at its disposal than the Palestinians. Even when it comes to the use of force, it's completely disproportionate; just look at the number of casualties on either side for example - and that not considering the victims in day to day life in the occupied territories. Basically, Palestinians don't pose an existential threat to Israel; but Israel poses an existential threat to Palestinians: for the nth time, Israel is purposefully keeping the Palestinians' situation just slightly above the level of humanitarian disaster (by their own words). This is why I'm criticizing Israel's actions; because they can actually do something to stop this conflict. On the other hand, what do you expect the Palestinians to do exactly? What can they do if they're already barely surviving day to day? The best some of them can do is launch rockets and hope to actually hit something; it's that pathetic.

Further, you continue to ignore that there are other possibilities to dealing with this, other than killing people. Remove the circumstances that give rise to the violence, namely, the occupation and the horrible conditions forced on the territories, and you'll be a lot closer to a peaceful settlement. Remember, Israel is the occupying power here.

2.As I wrote just in the previous post, Israel doesn't need Hamas to make it look bad, when it comes to killing civilians: "[...] again contrary to this idea that Israel does its best to avoid civilian casualties, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs has put out a statement saying that 'the targeting and destruction of residential properties in Gaza is the main cause of civilian casualties'. [...]". Also, as I said in the discussion we had in the other thread, there is no other country that doesn't want peace except Israel and the US; practically every other country considers the 1967 borders as a fair starting point for the peace talks. Israel is the occupying country here, in violation of international law.

3.This isn't a war, it's a slaughter; the distribution of forces is almost completely one-sided. Also, I guess I haven't stressed this enough: they aren't killing enemy combatants; they're killing people they suspect of being combatants, along with everyone nearby, which more often than not translates into family members dying as well.

1.I don't see Palestinian firing rocket, i see terrorist firing rocket. That's the problem, who represent the Palestinian ? Is the UN representative of Palestinian ? Is the Arab league ? Do you really think Maliki, Krichner, al-Thani or Abe give a fuck about what happen or just defend there own interest ? Why do they ask for something Israel won't accept ? You really think China will cancel his Israeli technology deal for Palestinian ? Is the Hamas representative

I'm sure Palestinian would prefer peace now with actual border rather than 10 more year of war for few square kilometer of land. But we don't know, the people who "represent" Palestinian never put a foot in Gaza or west bank... Why do you insist so much for this land, you really think it's so important for the average Palestinian ? And why we never speak about civil right of Palestinian in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon ?

2.See one. I'm sure you would prefer thousand more death than give more land to Israeli, as i said other country don't give a fuck and just want bore USA... Every anti-Zionist i talked with was far more jews hater than concerned by humanitarian problem... I'm sorry for this appeal to motive but i must ask you, the 1967 border seem so important even if you know it won't happen. More you wait more Israel will go forward, wouldn't be smarter to have peace with actual border ?

3.It's an asymmetric war. And you forget the legit army are Egyptian army and Jordan army. Hamas is not an army but a brunch of terrorist in a territory where the legit government decided to let anarchy... Why do Egypt and Jordan don't protect the Palestinian ?


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July 13, 2014, 05:48:18 PM
 #49

Perhaps it is a fairy tale, perhaps it isn't. And on the Palestinians' side, they would also complain that there is no way that the Israeli leadership is going to be held accountable for their crimes. But what you have to ask yourself is, what alternatives are there? Killing more civilians by bombing houses of suspects, or killing a whole lot more civilians in a ground invasion? This is insane; it will never end.

I purpose Hamas stop maximize the number of civilian victims. You really trust the Hamas try to avoid Palestinian victims ?
I think that Hamas is trying to maximize civilian victims in order to make Israel look bad to the rest of the world. They have always targeted civilians and have no intention of ever having any kind of peace.
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July 13, 2014, 10:37:37 PM
 #50

This all started from the kidnapping right? I remember the outrage it sparked within the Jewish community here at the home front of the east coast.


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July 14, 2014, 09:45:03 AM
 #51

This all started from the kidnapping right? I remember the outrage it sparked within the Jewish community here at the home front of the east coast.

Yes.

Blood for gas: Why Bibi is punishing Gaza
http://rt.com/op-edge/172524-bibi-punishing-gaza-ethnic-cleansing/

Quote
A quick recap is essential. US Secretary of State John “Bullhorn” Kerry was conducting a sham exercise known as “peace talks” between Israel and Palestine. As expected, it failed miserably. Hamas and the PLO in Palestine then formed a technocratic unity government. Bibi was, predictably, furious.

Then two Palestinians – not Hamas – kidnapped three Israeli teenager settlers hitchhiking at night near Hebron. One of the hitchhikers somehow managed to call an Israeli police emergency number on his mobile. The kidnappers freaked out and shot the hitchhikers on the spot, dumping their bodies.

Then all of Israel freaked out. For three weeks, tens of thousands of soldiers were involved in search parties. The media went berserk – immolating Palestinians in a racist funeral pyre.

There’s wild speculation all across the Arab street this has been an Israeli false flag. Evidence, though, seems to point to the 10,000-strong Qawasmeh tribe in the Hebron region – which is known historically to openly antagonize Hamas and attack Israeli settlers. There’s also the possibility the kidnappers wanted to use the hitchhikers for an exchange with Palestinian prisoners.

Quote
The numbers don’t do justice to the appalling carnage. By Monday, over northern Gaza, after Israel warned residents to leave the area to avoid airstrikes, at least 167 people were killed – the majority of them women, children and elderly civilians, 30 by Israeli rockets – and over 1,000 injured. Two hundred houses, not military installations, were totally destroyed and over 1,500 houses partially damaged.

Compare it to zero deaths in Israel. An IDF spokesperson gruesomely boasted that Gaza – a de facto slum/concentration camp – was being bombed every 4 1/2 minutes.

And here is where manslaughter in Ukraine and murders in Palestine connect:

Quote
So here’s the “secret” of Operation Protect the Zionists, sorry, Protective Edge: without smashing Hamas, which controls Gaza, Israel cannot drill off the Gaza coast. For Bibi as well as the Knesset, the possibility that the Palestinians could have access to their own gas-generated wealth is an absolute red line.

And the EU may be on it as well. No one in Brussels will admit it, but it’s easy to conceive “strategists” regarding this takeover of Palestinian gas fields opening the door in the future for the EU being less dependent on Gazprom, and a substantial importer of (stolen) Israeli gas.

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July 14, 2014, 12:00:43 PM
 #52

BS, near of every neighbor of Israel has gas, why would they mad if Gaza have ?

And Gaza still a part of Egypt, why Egypt army don't come in Gaza, secure the zone (this include obviously fighting Hamas...) then have the gas ?

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July 14, 2014, 01:48:18 PM
 #53

BS, near of every neighbor of Israel has gas, why would they mad if Gaza have ?

And Gaza still a part of Egypt, why Egypt army don't come in Gaza, secure the zone (this include obviously fighting Hamas...) then have the gas ?

There's an estimated 1.4 trillion cubic feet ($4 billion worth) of natural gas off the coast of Gaza, which is why the crazy zionists are determined to wipe out the Palestinians living there.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

"Israel's defence minister has confirmed that military plans to 'uproot Hamas' are about dominating Gaza's gas reserves"
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July 14, 2014, 02:43:51 PM
 #54

You are a fucking hypocrite, from your article:

"Mark Turner, founder of the Research Journalism Initiative, reported that the siege of Gaza and ensuing military pressure was designed to "eliminate" Hamas as "a viable political entity in Gaza" to generate a "political climate" conducive to a gas deal. This involved rehabilitating the defeated Fatah as the dominant political player in the West Bank, and "leveraging political tensions between the two parties, arming forces loyal to Abbas and the selective resumption of financial aid."

 Roll Eyes

Does Hamas mean Palestinian ?


And in comment:

"Nonsense. With the recent discoveries located in Israel's territorial waters, Israel's natural gas reserves are estimated to be in excess of 30 trillion cubic feet. Developed responsibly, they should satisfy internal demands for energy for decades to come. Israel has reached an agreement with Cyprus which has delineated their maritime boundaries. Lebanon made some claims to Israel's discoveries but later retracted them because they knew they couldn't win them. Israel and Syria do not share a maritime boundary so not sure why you would bring this into the discussion. If anything, it will be Syria and Lebanon locked into a dispute over their respective maritime boundaries. If Egypt can sell gas to Israel after having fought several wars with them - I don't see why the Palestinians can't either.

I'm all for Palestinians developing their resources on their lands (and waters) once a respectable peace is achieved. But note though that the 1.4 trillion cubic feet of nat gas off of Gaza is a very small reserve that will be depleted very quickly."

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July 14, 2014, 03:28:19 PM
 #55

BS, near of every neighbor of Israel has gas, why would they mad if Gaza have ?

And Gaza still a part of Egypt, why Egypt army don't come in Gaza, secure the zone (this include obviously fighting Hamas...) then have the gas ?

There's an estimated 1.4 trillion cubic feet ($4 billion worth) of natural gas off the coast of Gaza, which is why the crazy zionists are determined to wipe out the Palestinians living there.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

"Israel's defence minister has confirmed that military plans to 'uproot Hamas' are about dominating Gaza's gas reserves"

Then why did Israel evacuated its military and settlements from Gaza in 2005?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians,they would have already done that. But,they didnt,and the Palestinian population is only growing.
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July 14, 2014, 03:36:04 PM
 #56

the Palestinian population is only growing.

Yes, and maybe they want to escape Gaza and go to Egypt (do not forget it's their country...) but their "father" do not give them the right...

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July 14, 2014, 03:46:45 PM
 #57

BS, near of every neighbor of Israel has gas, why would they mad if Gaza have ?

And Gaza still a part of Egypt, why Egypt army don't come in Gaza, secure the zone (this include obviously fighting Hamas...) then have the gas ?

There's an estimated 1.4 trillion cubic feet ($4 billion worth) of natural gas off the coast of Gaza, which is why the crazy zionists are determined to wipe out the Palestinians living there.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

"Israel's defence minister has confirmed that military plans to 'uproot Hamas' are about dominating Gaza's gas reserves"

Then why did Israel evacuated its military and settlements from Gaza in 2005?

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

If Israel wanted to wipe out the Palestinians,they would have already done that. But,they didnt,and the Palestinian population is only growing.


No idea mate, Israel's got enough nukes the turn the whole Middle East into glass.
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July 14, 2014, 03:53:30 PM
 #58

No idea mate, Israel's got enough nukes the turn the whole Middle East into glass.

If there is some big hole in your logic maybe it's because your logic is flawed ?

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July 15, 2014, 08:21:38 PM
 #59

1.I don't see Palestinian firing rocket, i see terrorist firing rocket. That's the problem, who represent the Palestinian ? Is the UN representative of Palestinian ? Is the Arab league ? Do you really think Maliki, Krichner, al-Thani or Abe give a fuck about what happen or just defend there own interest ? [...] Is the Hamas representative

Right; the "Israel has no negotiating partner to solve this conflict" line. Well, it would be easier to answer this question if there could actually be democratic elections without external interference in Palestine. In the closest thing to a free democratic election the Palestinians were given the chance to run, in 2006, Hamas won despite having many of its members imprisoned, or refused the right to campaign. And then, it turns out that the whole US and Israeli (mainly) training, arming and readying the opposition (Fatah) for a coup, doesn't do much for democracy either. But, long story short, Hamas have so far been the representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza, while the Palestinian Authority have been the representatives of the Palestinian people in the West Bank - with recent events however, the new unity government is the true representative.

Still, what does representation, or lack thereof, have to do with the need for Israel to comply with international law and provide Palestinians with basic human rights? And if you want to stop seeing terrorists firing rockets, it's easy (I've said this before): stop forcing Palestinians to live in horrible, sub-human conditions, and the support for extremist tactics will disappear.


Why do they ask for something Israel won't accept ?

Is Israel above international law? Also, why do they ask for a peace settlement that seems fair to practically everyone except the US and Israel - is that what you're asking?

Also, see the following point:


I'm sure Palestinian would prefer peace now with actual border rather than 10 more year of war for few square kilometer of land. But we don't know, the people who "represent" Palestinian never put a foot in Gaza or west bank... Why do you insist so much for this land, you really think it's so important for the average Palestinian ?

Actually, it might surprise you to know that no, from what I've gathered so far, land isn't the main issue to Palestinians; it's their basic human rights, also known as, not being treated like animals. And there is an assumption in your post that Israel wants peace: well, with the continued expansion of settlements (even during peace talks, effectively sabotaging them), demolition of Palestinian homes, building of permanent checkpoints well inside occupied territories, appropriation of farmland and water resources vital for the survival of the Palestinian population, interference with internal Palestinian politics, and the separation and isolation of Gaza and the West Bank, I see no reason to believe Israel is interested in peace in the form of a two state solution. It seems to me to be more interested in keeping the illusion of a peace process, while continually stalling its progress, and pushing for additional settlements and land grabs.

Further, even if both parties would agree to such an arrangement, with current land divisions it could lead to a nonviable Palestinian state, perhaps like the Bantustans in South African Apartheid - in other words, a deeply impoverished population, with limited access to basic resources, heavily dependent on the outside, rife with corruption and a source of "guest workers" (read, pretty much slaves). Of course, if you're paying attention, this is already close to what the conditions Israel is imposing on the occupied territories resemble (except the part of the slaves I guess; last I checked, they use Chinese "slaves" now, not Palestinians "slaves" anymore). And in the end, I don't see how this would weaken extremist positions among Palestinians, since their living conditions wouldn't really improve - a continuation of the conflict would be the most likely outcome. For this to work, it would have to form two viable states; not necessarily along the 1967 borders, mind you, but certainly with that starting point, which in a sense is already a previous Palestinian concession, I should add.

Now, assuming Israel could actually respect Palestinian rights, a one state solution could be a possibility; Israel takes complete control over the whole territory and the Palestinian population is fully integrated into the society. Unfortunately, Israel is unwilling to take this path, claiming it conflicts with the "Jewish nature" of their state - so much for democratic principles.


2.See one. I'm sure you would prefer thousand more death than give more land to Israeli, as i said other country don't give a fuck and just want bore USA... Every anti-Zionist i talked with was far more jews hater than concerned by humanitarian problem... I'm sorry for this appeal to motive but i must ask you, the 1967 border seem so important even if you know it won't happen. More you wait more Israel will go forward, wouldn't be smarter to have peace with actual border ?

Right, the antisemitic card now - I was wondering when that would come up. I shouldn't really have to say this, but for the record, I couldn't care less if you're a Jew, Arab, Martian or whatever; what Israel is doing is wrong, and I'm calling you and others here out for defending it, without bothering to try and understand the situation first. And then, there you go again, dismissing the position of practically every other country without understanding it or even looking into it, for the simple fact that it doesn't conform to your views. This isn't a logical stance, and there is no massive international conspiracy against Israel either - Israel is digging that hole as we "speak", the longer it violates the rights of Palestinians.

See the previous point, as to why the current borders are not a likely scenario, if not for violating international law, at least for posing a threat to the survival of an eventual autonomous Palestinian state - even if Israel would accept it, which is unlikely in my view, as expressed above.


You really think China will cancel his Israeli technology deal for Palestinian ?

It isn't China that will cancel anything - it's Israel under pressure from the US. Do you really think the US would let either weapons sales it didn't approve of to go through, or control over the Middle East to erode further? Don't kid yourself: the US is only interested in Israel as long as it does as it's told; if it refuses, at the very least, Israel would be immediately placed under sanctions and the US' support in the region would shift to another more willing client state, to help enforce its will in the region. And this is another reason why it's so important that Israel settles its differences with its neighbors as soon as possible, if it has any intentions of ever being truly independent in the future, instead of a glorified American military base.


And why we never speak about civil right of Palestinian in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon ?

Is the way Israel treats the Palestinian population in the occupied territories linked to how other countries treat them? This is again a fallacy - but alright, I'll indulge you.

The conditions of Palestinian refugees in other countries vary considerably. In Jordan at least, they have mostly been assimilated into the society and most given citizenship, though there are still Palestinian refugee camps which seem to be mostly slums at the moment. However, there is still discrimination against Palestinians there. In other countries the situation is worse, in my view largely because of the refusal of authorities to give the possibility of citizenship to the refugees; so they are under very poor social and economic conditions, no doubt, and mostly limited to refugee camps.

Unfortunately, this doesn't even begin to compare to how bad the situation in the occupied territories is. Perhaps it didn't register with you on the many other times I mentioned it, but I'll repeat it here nonetheless (I mean, at some point you might actually read about it and look into this): Israel's policy towards the occupied territories has been to keep the Palestinian population at a level as consistent as possible with an humanitarian crisis, without pushing it over the edge completely. The documents containing Israeli officials asserting this intention are now public thanks to Wikileaks, so it should be fairly common knowledge.

Among many other things, this translates to the majority of the population subsisting at poverty level, often with no more than one daily meal; malnutrition and anemia are common, in some cases leading to stunted growth in children. Access to healthcare is also poor in many cases. Then in Gaza, there is open sewage and contaminated water thanks to Israeli attacks on infrastructure, and the population is effectively forced to rely almost exclusively on foreign aid so they don't starve.

And then, there is actual violence. When you're not killed in a military operation for being a suspected Hamas supporter or the family member of one or unlucky to be near enough to one, you're still subject to more or less arbitrary beatings by security forces, sometimes murder, imprisonment (many of whom children), sometimes under administrative detention, which means they can make up any reason whatsoever to keep you in jail, and even torture.
 

3.It's an asymmetric war. And you forget the legit army are Egyptian army and Jordan army. Hamas is not an army but a brunch of terrorist in a territory where the legit government decided to let anarchy... Why do Egypt and Jordan don't protect the Palestinian ?

Both Egypt and Jordan renounced any claim to the territories in favor of the formation of an autonomous Palestinian government. Well, it turns out Hamas was democratically elected by the Palestinians, so like it or not, it appears they are the legitimate government - with recent events, if the new unity government survives, it in turn will be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. As to why Egypt and Jordan don't protect the Palestinians, it might be relevant to point out that Egypt, for example, receives over 20 billion dollars every year from the US and would most likely want to continue receiving it - in short, mostly economic and political reasons. As I said, there is plenty of blame to throw around; but it's still Israel doing the most harm here.

And again, call the conflict by whatever definition makes you feel better about it, but at the end of the day, it's a slaughter in which suspects and their families are being killed by Israel as an occupying power, and the rest are kept at a bare minimum level of survival.

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