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Author Topic: Bter.com froze 3129000 NXT and need you help to return to the owner  (Read 4948 times)
bitcodo
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July 11, 2014, 01:43:34 PM
 #21

Law enforcement should be involved, but I don't see a need to freeze the account. This isn't like some crime scene where you have to lock down the physical environment while evidence is collected. Bter has a complete record of any transactions and any other details related to the account, so they can return the NXT to the rightful owner without losing any evidence at all. No need to tie it down in judicial bureaucracy for God knows how long.

Yes, time can be a problem. Maybe they should release funds.

But I have a feeling, they are doing it because they are not comfortable with police investigating bter; and free advertising too.

Anyway, I will shut up now. I wish klee gets his funds back and it's actually not my business how he or bter will do this.
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July 11, 2014, 01:57:06 PM
 #22

+1.
freeworm (OP)
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July 11, 2014, 02:12:03 PM
 #23

BTER - class act

Much Respect for BTER.

Why? Wouldn't be better to freeze account and cooperate with police.
Funds - coins have been deposited to BTER trading account and this person seems he would like to sell this coins. You are not police, judge or jury. Just cheap Bter advertising.

I respect klee, but people are acting very hypocritical. If newbie would lost his funds in a similar way, you would all just say it's his fault and that he is stupid. He would never get his funds back.

Please don't get me wrong.

Yes, that's what some other people's opinions at the discussion at

http ://weibo.com/btercom

You need to translate the Chinese language to what you can read


Some people claim that Bter doesn't have any right to move the frozen funds. There must be a legal arbitration.

Please help us to advice a proper institution to make the legal arbitration.
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July 11, 2014, 02:38:17 PM
 #24

BTER - class act

Much Respect for BTER.

Why? Wouldn't be better to freeze account and cooperate with police.
Funds - coins have been deposited to BTER trading account and this person seems he would like to sell this coins. You are not police, judge or jury. Just cheap Bter advertising.

I respect klee, but people are acting very hypocritical. If newbie would lost his funds in a similar way, you would all just say it's his fault and that he is stupid. He would never get his funds back.

Please don't get me wrong.

Yes, that's what some other people's opinions at the discussion at

http ://weibo.com/btercom

You need to translate the Chinese language to what you can read


Some people claim that Bter doesn't have any right to move the frozen funds. There must be a legal arbitration.

Please help us to advice a proper institution to make the legal arbitration.
If we define 'legal ownership' of crypto's as - someone/s ability to spend/have full control, of the coins according to blockchain rules/protocol, then YOU own those crypto's while you control the address they are in. In your case, the people who have sent crypto's to the addresses you issue, and control, have a 'claim' on those crypto's.
If for whatever reason you chose to freeze an account/address, or indeed run with peoples crypto's, those people will need to 'claim' ownership.......So let the account holder 'claim' those coins.

Maybe going forward, there should be a reasonable time for this to happen, before re-uniting the crypto's to the rightful owner.
 
It looked like there was a consensus that was easily reached today, in establishing the validity of the theft, AND who should rightfully own those crypto's. Shall we call this consensus-claimed?
  
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July 11, 2014, 02:43:52 PM
 #25

BTER - class act

Much Respect for BTER.

Why? Wouldn't be better to freeze account and cooperate with police.
Funds - coins have been deposited to BTER trading account and this person seems he would like to sell this coins. You are not police, judge or jury. Just cheap Bter advertising.

I respect klee, but people are acting very hypocritical. If newbie would lost his funds in a similar way, you would all just say it's his fault and that he is stupid. He would never get his funds back.

Please don't get me wrong.

Yes, that's what some other people's opinions at the discussion at

http ://weibo.com/btercom

You need to translate the Chinese language to what you can read


Some people claim that Bter doesn't have any right to move the frozen funds. There must be a legal arbitration.

Please help us to advice a proper institution to make the legal arbitration.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=686275.msg7788835#msg7788835
nest
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July 11, 2014, 02:53:25 PM
 #26

That's why i call it most important exchange in Nest thread, good job!

NEXT THING IS NEST
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July 11, 2014, 02:57:27 PM
 #27

This is a most interesting story.  Have the details of how this hack was carried out been posted somewhere?  It is always useful to review incidents like this to help make sure they don't happen again.
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July 11, 2014, 03:00:13 PM
 #28

BTER - class act

Much Respect for BTER.

Why? Wouldn't be better to freeze account and cooperate with police.
Funds - coins have been deposited to BTER trading account and this person seems he would like to sell this coins. You are not police, judge or jury. Just cheap Bter advertising.

I respect klee, but people are acting very hypocritical. If newbie would lost his funds in a similar way, you would all just say it's his fault and that he is stupid. He would never get his funds back.

Please don't get me wrong.

Yes, that's what some other people's opinions at the discussion at

http ://weibo.com/btercom

You need to translate the Chinese language to what you can read


Some people claim that Bter doesn't have any right to move the frozen funds. There must be a legal arbitration.

Please help us to advice a proper institution to make the legal arbitration.

Could you tell us exactly what you need?

Will a police report from klee suffice?

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salsacz
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July 11, 2014, 03:01:39 PM
 #29

This is a most interesting story.  Have the details of how this hack was carried out been posted somewhere?  It is always useful to review incidents like this to help make sure they don't happen again.

the whole story is here: http://www.coinssource.com/500-btc-bounty-retrieve-stolen-funds-cca-milllion-usd-bitcoins-and-nxt-coins-chapter-for-the-crypto-security/
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July 11, 2014, 03:06:29 PM
 #30

This is a most interesting story.  Have the details of how this hack was carried out been posted somewhere?  It is always useful to review incidents like this to help make sure they don't happen again.

the whole story is here: http://www.coinssource.com/500-btc-bounty-retrieve-stolen-funds-cca-milllion-usd-bitcoins-and-nxt-coins-chapter-for-the-crypto-security/
Ok, so let me get this straight.  There were initially 1170 btc stolen from one of Klee's wallets, sent to the bter exchanged and swapped for NXT?  Bter saw this large transaction and had the insight to freeze the account of the hacker?
Is this correct?
salsacz
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July 11, 2014, 03:11:48 PM
 #31

no, the news is not so detailed - 1) hacked 1170  btc from electrum, left at the new addres for a day 2) hacked 6m Nxt coins from his nxt accounts - and sent to bter, dumped there half
medicine
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July 11, 2014, 03:14:15 PM
 #32

no, the news is not so detailed - 1) hacked 1170  btc from electrum, left at the new addres for a day 2) hacked 6m Nxt coins from his nxt accounts - and sent to bter, dumped there half
Ok, so the 6M NXT have been frozen on BTER and the 1170 BTC are still missing?
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July 11, 2014, 03:16:36 PM
 #33

not the whole 6m, because 3 were sold, but 3m Nxt and some bitcoins were frozen at the Bter, but the 1170 BTC are still missing
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July 11, 2014, 03:19:30 PM
 #34

not the whole 6m, because 3 were sold, but 3m Nxt and some bitcoins were frozen at the Bter, but the 1170 BTC are still missing

Not exactly missing. One can look a them here: https://blockchain.info/nl/address/1GwNLwoCQiobJzmURSAq54vH4BYjFkwaxr

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BayAreaCoins
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July 11, 2014, 04:16:57 PM
 #35

I might be the only one semi bothered by this and I dont follow NXT at all, but kinda gay to freeze anyone's funds. Robbing the robber is still robbing! It adds a little flavor to the community!

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July 11, 2014, 04:49:09 PM
 #36


WAY TI GO BTER!!

GREAT JOB BEING ON TOP OF THIS!!!!!!!!!!
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July 11, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
 #37

Bter, thanks for your help for NXT community.
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July 11, 2014, 05:27:58 PM
 #38

I might be the only one semi bothered by this and I dont follow NXT at all, but kinda gay to freeze anyone's funds. Robbing the robber is still robbing! It adds a little flavor to the community!

Intertubez logic or failed humor? Grin If you believe that the guy who got his funds frozen did indeed steal it from the victim, then returning the coins to the rightful owner is stealing how? Can you steal something that isnt the person' property?

Dont know why I even replied to this Tongue

░▒▓█ welcome to freet0pia █▓▒░
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July 12, 2014, 02:32:01 AM
 #39

Law enforcement should be involved, but I don't see a need to freeze the account. This isn't like some crime scene where you have to lock down the physical environment while evidence is collected. Bter has a complete record of any transactions and any other details related to the account, so they can return the NXT to the rightful owner without losing any evidence at all. No need to tie it down in judicial bureaucracy for God knows how long.

uhh no..

the thief deserves to keep his coins.. it's a Free Market ..you can't call the police sorry

and how secure is NXT then ?

edit:
The guy running the NXT community funds probably wanted to cash some out... but
the exchange seen it and stopped him and created a forum account to give the coins back lol

FUD first & ask questions later™
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July 12, 2014, 07:37:09 AM
Last edit: July 12, 2014, 07:50:35 AM by FenixRD
 #40

Law enforcement should be involved, but I don't see a need to freeze the account. This isn't like some crime scene where you have to lock down the physical environment while evidence is collected. Bter has a complete record of any transactions and any other details related to the account, so they can return the NXT to the rightful owner without losing any evidence at all. No need to tie it down in judicial bureaucracy for God knows how long.

uhh no..

the thief deserves to keep his coins.. it's a Free Market ..you can't call the police sorry

and how secure is NXT then ?

edit:
The guy running the NXT community funds probably wanted to cash some out... but
the exchange seen it and stopped him and created a forum account to give the coins back lol

The thief lost the right to the coins when he transferred them to someone else's account (BTER). At that point there was a consensual, voluntary relationship between BTER and the thief, one which was entered into by false pretenses (the thief was not known as a thief). It is not a matter of legality but of simple ethics. The only concern might be that an account was "framed" for some reason -- but that's simple, too. Say the account holder notifies BTER with the claim that they are not the thief. Maybe, maybe not. But we know for sure whose coins they are, so send the funds back to Klee, and any preexisting funds should be left to the "maybe-thief".

As long as any preexisting funds in the account aren't withheld, there is no ethical dilemma. BTER is not stealing, they are removing consent from being party to abet an existing theft of property, now that they have proof of the theft.

This is the line in the sand I draw with blacklisting, and anything else, really. Voluntary interaction only. I can have a personal "blacklist" which I call a greylist, since using colors for lists is a thing. It's very short.

But most people in Bitcoin when discussing this train of thought, whether it's called redlisting or blacklisting or whatever, are referring to some sort of mandatory process that becomes an enforced part of Bitcoin or something, which removes the ability to consent from the mix. That , therefore, I cannot support.

Greylisting, my term for personal, voluntary lists -- tbh, I just named it now for this post, I can't lie -- is something everyone already has, anyway. You and you alone choose who you trade and interact with (and they as well), for myriad reasons. Maybe you just don't like their faces. You may be judged for public interactions and trades (or also for not interacting or trading), and treated accordingly. Thus people may greylist you for bad behavior, or prefer you over another otherwise equivalent trade partner for prior behavior they liked. Each individual may then also be judged and greylisted for their public greylists, and so on. Bottom line, it's all voluntary, including the private/public part.

This, as far as I know, is the only ethically- and logically-consistent manner to do such things.

Uberlurker. Been here since the Finney transaction. Please consider this before replying; there is a good chance I've heard it before.

-Citizenfive
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