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Author Topic: So, apparently I can't work more than 40 hours a week...  (Read 5135 times)
JoelKatz
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March 15, 2012, 07:17:06 AM
 #21

That's my point. You're in competition with people who can outwork you like you can't believe. You probably can't keep up with them. They just work and sleep. If not for time and half, the business would fire you because you finally get tired of 70 hour weeks.
He's only in competition with those people because of this law. If not for this law, those people would be working 70 hour weeks at jobs where that kind of stamina is maximally valued and he wouldn't be competing with them at all. He'd be looking for a job where that kind of stamina is of no (or minimal) value. If there are people who can outwork him by that much, then he's picked a job at which he's terribly inefficient. An ideal system would discourage him from working in that field, not hold others back so he has a chance.

But at least you recognize that this law doesn't protect people from "abusive management" or some nonsense like that. All it does is hold the hardest-working employees back for the benefit of the less hard working employees. How about a law requiring that the pinky toes of each of the top 10 NBA players be broken to give the other players a chance.

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Jon
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March 15, 2012, 07:19:02 AM
 #22

Profit is not "that which is preferable", it is "that which makes one better off".

If I threaten to cut off either your finger or your toe, and you choose the finger, you have not profited by the exchange of a finger for a toe.

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March 15, 2012, 07:20:58 AM
 #23

I see nothing wrong here.

Well then don't complain when the majority of jobs are outsourced to China and India and the majority of other people in developed countries become unemployed (unless you really do want to work your 80 hours a week for a few measly bucks to be on the "same level").

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If that happens, it seems the first world isn't generating the wealth to justify their lifestyle. The problem isn't cheap labor; it's a poor performing economy and overvalued labor.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 15, 2012, 07:41:45 AM
 #24

If that happens, it seems the first world isn't generating the wealth to justify their lifestyle. The problem isn't cheap labor; it's a poor performing economy and overvalued labor.

Well to a fair extent I think it could be argued that a large proportion of the first world's "wealth" is generated by big business through the use of 3rd world labor for the benefit of the share holders and upper management - and for this case they are indeed generating enough wealth for their lifestyle (just look at those yachts and private jets).

So no problem as long as you are in the right group (a large shareholder or part of the "team") - the rest of the first world populace is the problem (which I guess includes you as you are neither of these two groups). So all those outside of the two groups don't deserve anything (including a job) as you are basically not needed.

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Jon
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March 15, 2012, 07:54:26 AM
 #25

Wealth is not zero-sum. It's not the corporations fault that people buy crap they can't afford.

All I am saying is if your labor is not scarce and easily replaced by anyone with a lower cost-of-living, then maybe you need to move up a little to get the first world living you desire.

It's not coercion. It's reality.

The Communists say, equal labour entitles man to equal enjoyment. No, equal labour does not entitle you to it, but equal enjoyment alone entitles you to equal enjoyment. Enjoy, then you are entitled to enjoyment. But, if you have laboured and let the enjoyment be taken from you, then – ‘it serves you right.’ If you take the enjoyment, it is your right.
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March 15, 2012, 07:57:48 AM
 #26

Sure - I don't think anyone thinks it's a bad idea for you to want to work extra hours (for pay of course).

The problem is that if your labor is just not valued at all (which it basically wouldn't be if you are in direct competition with the developing countries) then you won't even get a job to start with (in which case your biggest problem won't be over getting the latest plasma TV).

Specifically in regards to the OP I'm sure you can find other ways to make extra money outside of the 40 hours if you want to.

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FirstAscent
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March 15, 2012, 08:00:13 AM
 #27

That's my point. You're in competition with people who can outwork you like you can't believe. You probably can't keep up with them. They just work and sleep. If not for time and half, the business would fire you because you finally get tired of 70 hour weeks.
He's only in competition with those people because of this law. If not for this law, those people would be working 70 hour weeks at jobs where that kind of stamina is maximally valued and he wouldn't be competing with them at all. He'd be looking for a job where that kind of stamina is of no (or minimal) value. If there are people who can outwork him by that much, then he's picked a job at which he's terribly inefficient. An ideal system would discourage him from working in that field, not hold others back so he has a chance.

It has nothing to do with stamina or efficiency. The 70 hour workers (not managers) simply don't value any free time. Sticking Twinkies on a shelf is stimulating to them on some level beyond what others deem acceptable.
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March 15, 2012, 08:35:06 AM
 #28

On the one hand, I agree with you that you should be able to work as many hours as you would like.  On the other hand, for a rational person in the first world, that number should at least average out to less than 40.

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March 15, 2012, 08:44:32 AM
 #29

It's my first time entering the workforce and it seems finding work that exceeds 40 hours a week is hard.

Why? Because the state feels it's necessary to mandate employers by force to pay 1.5 times the wage for every hour worked overtime.

Fuck this. If I want to offer labor for more than 40 hours per week, it's my damn right. It's my labor.

when I tried to join the workforce not too long ago, I was trying to find a half-time job. Not at all easy. Because of the overhead they always want you fulltime. Now I'm back to self-employed, working over 40 hours ;|. darn.

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March 15, 2012, 10:40:33 AM
 #30

(often the overtime not paid anyway as it is deemed "just something you have to do if you want this job").


Then that's just the market rate for the labor. If the employee can be easily fired and replaced with somebody who can easily meet the requirement of un-salaried overtime, then why not?

I see nothing wrong here.

You assume that the market is some kind of objective being that assigns value to labour.  It isn't. 

JoelKatz
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March 15, 2012, 10:42:34 AM
 #31

It has nothing to do with stamina or efficiency. The 70 hour workers (not managers) simply don't value any free time. Sticking Twinkies on a shelf is stimulating to them on some level beyond what others deem acceptable.
Right, and the only reason those people are competing with him for this job is because, since neither of them can work 70 hours weeks, the two of them are on an equal footing. If this law were eliminated, he would not be competing with them.

Whether that meant he'd look elsewhere or they'd look elsewhere depends on lots of factors. But either way, he wouldn't be competing with them. There are plenty of jobs where being able to work 70 hours a week makes no difference. Teacher, for example.

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March 15, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
 #32

Atlas, I have it - the solution to your problem.

Pretend to be an illegal alien.

That way you can work 90 hours a week AND get paid less than the minimum wage. Best of all, no health and safety regulations so you can risk your life to make the boss a few extra cents.

Problem solved.

No need to thank me - it just makes me happy to know that you will finally be able to work the long hours with low pay that you dreamed of and so richly deserve!

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March 15, 2012, 02:20:25 PM
 #33

Are you sure you want to work as many hours as possible at a minimum wage place, and have no free time, instead of work as little as possible at such a place and spend all your free time on improving your chances for a much higher paying and intellectually stimulating job? (I.e. education/training)

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March 15, 2012, 05:48:36 PM
 #34

Atlas, I have it - the solution to your problem.

Pretend to be an illegal alien.

That way you can work 90 hours a week AND get paid less than the minimum wage. Best of all, no health and safety regulations so you can risk your life to make the boss a few extra cents.

Problem solved.

No need to thank me - it just makes me happy to know that you will finally be able to work the long hours with low pay that you dreamed of and so richly deserve!

Tons of people do this with low end labor jobs. Actually, for some jobs, people prefer to get paid cash rather than let the government tax it and withhold it.
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March 15, 2012, 05:52:31 PM
 #35

Tons of people do this with low end labor jobs. Actually, for some jobs, people prefer to get paid cash rather than let the government tax it and withhold it.

I think another primary reason people like getting paid in cash is it is often paid at the end of the day for work rendered. It's often amazing how the incentive to work for less goes up when one knows payment is forthcoming immediately.
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March 15, 2012, 06:38:00 PM
 #36

Having worked 400+ hours/month for an entire year, I can say from experience that you lose a part of your soul when you work too much.  I can see that you're young and anxious, but just be glad if you're paid 1.5 times for overtime. If you need the money and don't care for overtime, go get a second job.  Outside of a few regulated professions (like airline pilots, etc), nobody is preventing you from working two jobs.
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March 15, 2012, 06:47:08 PM
 #37

One day you will wake up and find you have been working for 20 years. At that point you won't want to work 40+ hrs. You will then be thrown away like a broken piece of equipment and quickly replaced by some kid who will work 80hrs. for half as much.
The "free market" sounds like freedom. But it would be a very brutal arrangement. Look at how well it has worked out for America recently. All our jobs are now filled by people in China who work as virtual slaves. There is your free market.

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March 15, 2012, 06:57:56 PM
 #38

Having worked 400+ hours/month for an entire year, I can say from experience that you lose a part of your soul when you work too much.  I can see that you're young and anxious, but just be glad if you're paid 1.5 times for overtime. If you need the money and don't care for overtime, go get a second job.  Outside of a few regulated professions (like airline pilots, etc), nobody is preventing you from working two jobs.

Why did you do this?
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March 15, 2012, 07:38:00 PM
 #39

Having worked 400+ hours/month for an entire year, I can say from experience that you lose a part of your soul when you work too much.

+1

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March 15, 2012, 07:39:45 PM
 #40

To these who feel law is restricting their freedom to work as much as they like, please think about this:

http://lifestyle.sympatico.ca/living/palliative_care_nurse_reveals_top_5_deathbed_regrets/310eaae8

Anyone is free to waste their life as they deem fit, but one should not be surprised if the society is trying to do something about it. While it can be a bit unfortunate that law does not differentiate between people who work overtime voluntarily and these who are exploited, such limits can be easily sidestepped by self-employment, or by silent agreement with employer (as in case of software enterprises).

For one I'm glad I live in Europe, can work just 20-35 hours per week on average (depends on project) and people around me find it quite agreeable Cool . I have small studio apartment(without mortgage), 12 year old car, am quite happy with it and don't feel entitled to more.

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