Money Transfer Regulations

[Willsway]

To be legal from my country's perspective I would need to:

1) Limit the value per transaction. I'm not 100% sure which value this would be - I'm currently consulting on the fact - but it would be less than $10000.
2) I would need to withdraw any profits from the offshore account (paypal, etc) within 30 days of receipt within the account.
3) If I would need to refund, or pay someone out, I would have to do that within the allocated 30 days. Paying out cash would not be allowed.
4) I would have to declare my income from the sale, and pay taxes on it.
5) Obviously normal accounting practice would need to be followed and books maintained as per normal tax regulations.

[1713443579]

1713443579

[FreeMoney]

To be legal from my country's perspective I would need to:

1) Limit the value per transaction. I'm not 100% sure which value this would be - I'm currently consulting on the fact - but it would be less than $10000.
2) I would need to withdraw any profits from the offshore account (paypal, etc) within 30 days of receipt within the account.
3) If I would need to refund, or pay someone out, I would have to do that within the allocated 30 days. Paying out cash would not be allowed.
4) I would have to declare my income from the sale, and pay taxes on it.
5) Obviously normal accounting practice would need to be followed and books maintained as per normal tax regulations.

It sounds like it'll be tough to compete with someone who has freedom.

[Willsway]

To be legal from my country's perspective I would need to:

1) Limit the value per transaction. I'm not 100% sure which value this would be - I'm currently consulting on the fact - but it would be less than $10000.
2) I would need to withdraw any profits from the offshore account (paypal, etc) within 30 days of receipt within the account.
3) If I would need to refund, or pay someone out, I would have to do that within the allocated 30 days. Paying out cash would not be allowed.
4) I would have to declare my income from the sale, and pay taxes on it.
5) Obviously normal accounting practice would need to be followed and books maintained as per normal tax regulations.

It sounds like it'll be tough to compete with someone who has freedom.

It's almost impossible. There is huge debate in the country about the damage these kinds of protectionism do to the economy of the country. Unfortunately, getting a politician to do something about our competitive disadvantage is far harder than trying to compete despite it, so we need to think in terms of creative competition

[ichi]

What is needed is a black market defense company with honest intentions that will provide legitimate "self defense" against government goons.   You pay for "protection" from the government and when you are attacked by the government they scare, and if necessary dispose of officials whom violate the natural right to private property, free association and exchange.  At the very least it could be an insurance fund to provide defense in a lawsuit.   

Until the black free market develops its own security apparatus to defend against organized crime (government), systems like bitcoin will be too dangerous for most individuals to risk.

If you're paying protection, it's just another government -- and probably a more dangerous one.  What you need is a system that protects itself by design.  Threats of force against governments are pointless.  Nothing to see here, move along.  These are not the droids you're looking for.

[Willsway]

What is needed is a black market defense company with honest intentions that will provide legitimate "self defense" against government goons.   You pay for "protection" from the government and when you are attacked by the government they scare, and if necessary dispose of officials whom violate the natural right to private property, free association and exchange.  At the very least it could be an insurance fund to provide defense in a lawsuit.   

Until the black free market develops its own security apparatus to defend against organized crime (government), systems like bitcoin will be too dangerous for most individuals to risk.

If you're paying protection, it's just another government -- and probably a more dangerous one.  What you need is a system that protects itself by design.  Threats of force against governments are pointless.  Nothing to see here, move along.  These are not the droids you're looking for.

LoL. I have some baseball bats in the cupboard if we need to break some kneecaps. But seriously, as long as the right to use bitcoin is protected, or at least if the usage is ignored, by a single country, the bitcoin itself should be safe. Should some governments declare it illegal (in many jurisdictions it will take some fancy spin-doctoring to achieve this), the people who find themselves in these countries will be able to use the system anonymously, if they are careful. The best protection for bitcoin will be to achieve a wide acceptance in the "new economy" of online games and services. Should this happen most governments would find it extremely difficult to oppose the use of bitcoins outright. They may try to force some form of regulation down on the system but this will largely be limited to the places where they will be able to enforce a modicum of control, like the exchanges.

[Anonymous]

The way things work with politicos is you need a lobbyist to go and pay them off with political "donations" for their campaigns.They then enact laws that benefit their contributors.At its base politics is all about punishing your enemies and rewarding your friends.Untill Bitcoin can bribe the right politician it will be in danger.I wonder which politicos are getting contributioins from paypal.

 

[throughput]

But seriously, as long as the right to use bitcoin is protected, or at least if the usage is ignored, by a single country, the bitcoin itself should be safe. Should some governments declare it illegal (in many jurisdictions it will take some fancy spin-doctoring to achieve this), the people who find themselves in these countries will be able to use the system anonymously, if they are careful. The best protection for bitcoin will be to achieve a wide acceptance in the "new economy" of online games and services. Should this happen most governments would find it extremely difficult to oppose the use of bitcoins outright. They may try to force some form of regulation down on the system but this will largely be limited to the places where they will be able to enforce a modicum of control, like the exchanges.

Exactly. The only point of control (for the governments) is at the local exchange.
Governments will outlaw the operation of Bitcoin exchanges, sooner or later, and that seem obvious to me,
I don't know why I am so sure .

So, sharing the best practices of (legally) operating the Bitcoin exchange is most welcome.

[bytemaster]

How do you out lobby the fed?

[bytemaster]

How do you out lobby the fed?

[FreeMoney]

How do you out lobby the fed?

Fed can only bribe w/ dollars, but we have bitcoins. 

But seriously, freedom is not giving extra to your masters.

[MoonShadow]

What is needed is a black market defense company with honest intentions that will provide legitimate "self defense" against government goons.   You pay for "protection" from the government and when you are attacked by the government they scare, and if necessary dispose of officials whom violate the natural right to private property, free association and exchange.  At the very least it could be an insurance fund to provide defense in a lawsuit.   
 

Sounds like either "Alongside Night" or "The Diamond Age".

But a legal defense fund isn't a bad idea.

[EconomyBuilder]

Bitcoin by not relying on a trusted third party makes it quite secure in some ways from governments.  There's no gold warehouse that anybody can confiscate.   And assuming it doesn't have major security flaw (a big if, it needs a security audit by professional cryptographers)  it won't need to rely on government legal systems for its security.   But it's not securely anonymous, so governments can trace down and raid the exchanges (under current money transfer regulations, as with e-gold and others) and end users (if totally outlawed) and force them to reveal their keys and thus cough over their bitcoins.

BTW, the short legal answer is that we're screwed both ways -- it's "money transfer" for the purposes of financial regulation but not "money" under the UCC .  So you can't, for example, write a check for "10,000 BTCs" and have it legally be treated like a check in the U.S.    You can make BTCs a term in your contract but it will probably be treated like a good or service rather than like money.   But money laundering regulations and the like apply.  As usual, consult a real lawyer.

[Timo Y]

I was thinking about launching a Bitcoin accepting website and to get around all these pesky regulations (most of which I probably never even heard about!), what if I just post a disclaimer on the website saying

"WARNING: Bitcoin is nothing but Monopoly Money."

Would that work?

I mean, is it my fault that some crazy people are prepared to trade Monopoly dollars for real dollars on some crazy website in some corner of the big wide web? 

[MoonShadow]

I was thinking about launching a Bitcoin accepting website and to get around all these pesky regulations (most of which I probably never even heard about!), what if I just post a disclaimer on the website saying

"WARNING: Bitcoin is nothing but Monopoly Money."

Would that work?

I doubt it.

[Terence]

I am planning to launch a crowd-funding platform called "Goodwill" (in 26 different languages), which looks/works rather like Kickstarter and several others, but which is completely free and aimed at helping fund entrepreneurs and change-makers in the least developed countries and other developing economies.  Of the 48 least developed countries in the world, 33 are in sub-Saharan Africa. 

The method of project funding the platform supports will be by pledging donations or goodwill-giving (hence the name), and instead of creating a liabiity, a profit share agreement or receiving shares in the venture, donors are rewarded with gifts which typically have no monatary value and are only intrinsiclly valuable to the project and donors.  Therefore no real-world purchase is being set up or transacted.

The plan is to have it available in English, French, Portuguese and Spanish plus the 22 'national' languages of Africa soon after launch.  The Goodwill platform and services will all be available entirely open-source and completely free to use.  And like the Ushahidi software, for example, there will also be a free hosted version in each language, with instant setup, which we will run on our servers. 

One of the major forms of investment or funding for these projects is anticpiated to come from the diaspora, and therefore a low cost method of transferring funds internationally is highly topical and important.

This is what's planned to roll out so far...

1.   Crowd VC Goodwill crowd-funding platform
2.   Crowd VC Goodwill crowd-funding platform (hosted solution)
3.   Crowd VC Goodwill Stock Exchange
4.   Crowd VC Goodwill Seed Money Startup Fund
5.   Crowd VC Goodwill Diaspora Fund
6.   Crowd VC Goodwill iPhone/3G App (with Bitcoin/M-Pesa type payment gateways)
7.   Crowd VC Goodwill Network (publishes projects to other crowdfunding platforms)

Our "big idea" is to help create a world in which even the poorest of us has the opportunity to reach their full potential and contribute to the well-being of their family, community, country and the world.  Our focus will be the least developed countries of the world, helping to fund projects which improve education, health, civil society and economic development with the intention of helping their economies reduce their dependency on multilateral and bilateral aid. 

From profits we are able to generate we will also create a 'Seed Money Startup Fund' as a source of ready capital capable of getting good ideas off the ground.  It will be run as an NPO (not for profit organization) and any surpluses will be reinvested in bringing new sustainable development projects to life.

I would be very pleased to have your thoughts and suggestions (or offers of help) to try and understand this project and how it relates to the issues which surround the topic specifically, and the brave new word of Bitcoin in general.

[R-]

I did some research into money exchanging and money transfer regulations in the U.S.

The raw legal code is online at:  http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_08/31cfr103_08.html

I am not a lawyer; trying to understand legalese is just an odd hobby of mine.  From my reading of the regulations, if you exchange less than $1,000.USD worth of Bitcoin per day you don't have to worry:

(1) Currency dealer or exchanger. A currency dealer or exchanger  (other than a person who does not exchange currency in an amount greater
than $1,000 in currency or monetary or other instruments for any person on any day in one or more transactions).

It looks to me like if you exchanged more than $1,000.USD per day a good lawyer might be able to argue that Bitcoins do not meet the legal definition of "currency":

(h) Currency. The coin and paper money of the United States or of any other country that is designated as legal tender and that circulates
and is customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in the country of issuance. Currency includes U.S. silver certificates, U.S. notes and Federal Reserve notes. Currency also includes official foreign bank notes that are customarily used and accepted as a medium of exchange in a foreign country.

Then again, if Bitcoins are not legally "currency" then it might be left up to a Court to decide what, exactly, they are, and the result might be really unpleasant (if a judge decided that they're like stocks and are therefore subject to regulation by the Security and Exchange Commision you might find yourself in jail for being an unlicensed stock broker).

I think Bitcoin needs some licensed, regulated exchanges that abide by all the regulations, treating Bitcoins just like another foreign currency, and make it really easy to buy or sell a few hundred dollars worth of Bitcoins.  The regulations are not as onerous as I expected; basically you just have to get identification from customers that make large transactions and report them.

Could be stickied

[repentance]

Could be stickied

It's based on speculation from two years ago.  We now have concrete information about the extent to which services based in different locations are being required to comply with AML/KYC requirements, both directly - as entities having a reporting obligation in their own right - and indirectly - in the case where other financial service providers are requiring them to collect KYC information.

[thermos]

Does anyone happen to know what kinds of regulations are in place for people who buy and sell unofficial digital currencies such as Bitcoin? I'm particularly interested in United States regulations, but please mention any regulations of which you are aware.

Registering a business or non-profit organization gives the advantage of being able to do transactions in the name of the business and forming a corporation limits liability. But it seems like it would be more trouble than it's worth to incorporate or register a business until the profits are large enough to hire employees.

I noticed that in the United States, financial institutions are required to submit a currency transaction report for all transactions over $10,000 and a suspicious activity report for suspicious transactions. I don't think a private citizen would be required to submit either type of report. In any case, so long as the official currency part of the transaction is passing through a registered financial institution, the institution would already be submitting those reports for such transactions.

I have read about money laundering and it seems that so long as a person is not knowingly laundering money, then the person is not committing the crime.

Profits would need to be tracked for tax purposes but that can be accomplished easily enough using accounting software such as GnuCash.

Am I missing anything? Are there any regulations prohibiting me from sending money to and receiving money from random strangers who may be criminals unbeknownst to me?

interesting read i wonder if we will find some clarity soon NYC;)

[0z0n321337]

lets necropost