klee's hacked 1170 btc, Part II

[The Avenger]

Woah, you guys are turning this into a war on mixing services? Bitmixer was doing their job. They provide a service, and it would be a useless service if they retained records that would incriminate their customers.

I think you should read what I said earlier about the "real world". Just because BTC is digital does not mean it is not subject to the same laws as physical, fiat currency.

This is a money laundering service. If bitmixer can hire the same lawyers as HSBC, they can perhaps just get away with a fine.

Otherwise, they will need to explain laundering $750,000 of stolen money.

But as I also said earlier, it's down to klee. He can just let the criminals away with their crimes if he so decides.

Saying "Bitmixer was doing their job" is like saying a hitman is doing his job. He is, if you believe it's okay to pay people to murder others for cash?

Once again, it amazes me how people support blatant criminality in the bitcoin community.

[damiano]

Bitmixer has not much to do with hack, they have just provided the service for hacker.

People in the bitcoin community are so strange.

bitmixer.io knowingly accepted $750,000 in stolen funds.

They did not inform the police.

That is a crime.

Indeed it is.

Especially here in the USA

Anyone know where bit mixer.io is or hosted?

Europe

Money laundering is also a crime in Europe  

Where abouts in Europe ?

You do a psychological take-down on the hacker, to the point where he begs to give back some of what he stole and it's unnoticed. Who was turning the screw? To the point the hacker himself required the thread be closed down as part of the deal, because he was reading it and some of us made it too tangible what will happen to him. He couldn't face it.

The details on bitmixer are all there, if you go searching. Shit, I even mentioned it earlier    

I know I'm lazy as in out right now .

I'll have a deeper look Into this tonight or tomorrow morn

[jc01480]

There is a mistaken belief that a victim has to contact authorities before any type of formal criminal investigation to proceed.  Not so.  There is an element at play here called coercion.  Attempting to neutralize a victim' desire to prosecute by dangling the proceeds of their activity as bait is a factor used in probable cause affidavit, search warrant, and ultimately a criminal indictment.  This is more than sufficient justification for initiating a covert investigation.  The only problem with that is, both sides will be equally scrutinized.  Yes, I'm more than confident this individual will be caught.

[CEG5952]

Woah, you guys are turning this into a war on mixing services? Bitmixer was doing their job. They provide a service, and it would be a useless service if they retained records that would incriminate their customers.

I think you should read what I said earlier about the "real world". Just because BTC is digital does not mean it is not subject to the same laws as physical, fiat currency.

This is a money laundering service. If bitmixer can hire the same lawyers as HSBC, they can perhaps just get away with a fine.

Otherwise, they will need to explain laundering $750,000 of stolen money.

But as I also said earlier, it's down to klee. He can just let the criminals away with their crimes if he so decides.

Saying "Bitmixer was doing their job" is like saying a hitman is doing his job. He is, if you believe it's okay to pay people to murder others for cash?

Once again, it amazes me how people support blatant criminality in the bitcoin community.

Interesting. Can you point to some examples of cases where BTC were stolen, and law enforcement got involved -- subpoenaed witnesses, confiscated property, etc? Regarding the bolded, it depends what you mean. Are you saying mixing services are illegal? Are you saying they are immoral? If the former, what precedent can you point to?

[The Avenger]

Woah, you guys are turning this into a war on mixing services? Bitmixer was doing their job. They provide a service, and it would be a useless service if they retained records that would incriminate their customers.

I think you should read what I said earlier about the "real world". Just because BTC is digital does not mean it is not subject to the same laws as physical, fiat currency.

This is a money laundering service. If bitmixer can hire the same lawyers as HSBC, they can perhaps just get away with a fine.

Otherwise, they will need to explain laundering $750,000 of stolen money.

But as I also said earlier, it's down to klee. He can just let the criminals away with their crimes if he so decides.

Saying "Bitmixer was doing their job" is like saying a hitman is doing his job. He is, if you believe it's okay to pay people to murder others for cash?

Once again, it amazes me how people support blatant criminality in the bitcoin community.

Interesting. Can you point to some examples of cases where BTC were stolen, and law enforcement got involved -- subpoenaed witnesses, confiscated property, etc? Regarding the bolded, it depends what you mean. Are you saying mixing services are illegal? Are you saying they are immoral? If the former, what precedent can you point to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20673466

Money laundering is the process of disguising the proceeds of crime so that the money cannot be linked to the wrongdoing.

[scarsbergholden]

Woah, you guys are turning this into a war on mixing services? Bitmixer was doing their job. They provide a service, and it would be a useless service if they retained records that would incriminate their customers.

I think you should read what I said earlier about the "real world". Just because BTC is digital does not mean it is not subject to the same laws as physical, fiat currency.

This is a money laundering service. If bitmixer can hire the same lawyers as HSBC, they can perhaps just get away with a fine.

Otherwise, they will need to explain laundering $750,000 of stolen money.

But as I also said earlier, it's down to klee. He can just let the criminals away with their crimes if he so decides.

Saying "Bitmixer was doing their job" is like saying a hitman is doing his job. He is, if you believe it's okay to pay people to murder others for cash?

Once again, it amazes me how people support blatant criminality in the bitcoin community.

Interesting. Can you point to some examples of cases where BTC were stolen, and law enforcement got involved -- subpoenaed witnesses, confiscated property, etc? Regarding the bolded, it depends what you mean. Are you saying mixing services are illegal? Are you saying they are immoral? If the former, what precedent can you point to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20673466

Money laundering is the process of disguising the proceeds of crime so that the money cannot be linked to the wrongdoing.

That doesn't answer the question, though. Have there been any cases like that? I'd like to know myself.

[The Avenger]

Woah, you guys are turning this into a war on mixing services? Bitmixer was doing their job. They provide a service, and it would be a useless service if they retained records that would incriminate their customers.

I think you should read what I said earlier about the "real world". Just because BTC is digital does not mean it is not subject to the same laws as physical, fiat currency.

This is a money laundering service. If bitmixer can hire the same lawyers as HSBC, they can perhaps just get away with a fine.

Otherwise, they will need to explain laundering $750,000 of stolen money.

But as I also said earlier, it's down to klee. He can just let the criminals away with their crimes if he so decides.

Saying "Bitmixer was doing their job" is like saying a hitman is doing his job. He is, if you believe it's okay to pay people to murder others for cash?

Once again, it amazes me how people support blatant criminality in the bitcoin community.

Interesting. Can you point to some examples of cases where BTC were stolen, and law enforcement got involved -- subpoenaed witnesses, confiscated property, etc? Regarding the bolded, it depends what you mean. Are you saying mixing services are illegal? Are you saying they are immoral? If the former, what precedent can you point to?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20673466

Money laundering is the process of disguising the proceeds of crime so that the money cannot be linked to the wrongdoing.

That doesn't answer the question, though. Have there been any cases like that? I'd like to know myself.

Am I everyone's mother?

http://bit.ly/1kmo7B0

[Argwai96]

Don't really see anyone going after Bitmixer.io here. Maybe things are changing, but historically, just hasn't happened. Law enforcement have never considered it important enough... look at Inputs.io -- that was recent. Was there even a criminal investigation?

[damiano]

Bitmixer has not much to do with hack, they have just provided the service for hacker.

People in the bitcoin community are so strange.

bitmixer.io knowingly accepted $750,000 in stolen funds.

They did not inform the police.

That is a crime.

Indeed it is.

Especially here in the USA

Anyone know where bit mixer.io is or hosted?

Europe

Money laundering is also a crime in Europe  

Where abouts in Europe ?

You do a psychological take-down on the hacker, to the point where he begs to give back some of what he stole and it's unnoticed. Who was turning the screw? To the point the hacker himself required the thread be closed down as part of the deal, because he was reading it and some of us made it too tangible what will happen to him. He couldn't face it.

The details on bitmixer are all there, if you go searching. Shit, I even mentioned it earlier    

I know I'm lazy as in out right now .

I'll have a deeper look Into this tonight or tomorrow morn

Norway

[BurtW]

What a bunch of whiners.  You want freedom, you want Bitcoin, you want it to function as fungible money or a money like entity, you want privacy, "the government has taken is taking all our rights", "we don't want them snooping into our emails or personal affairs", etc. etc.  You want your sacred privacy

until you don't

Then it's they should do something about this!  Mixing should be illegal!  For God's sake that is money washing or something!  OMG!  Please Mr. Government or lawyers judges etc. of the "just-a-system" help us poor consumers!  Protect us from evil!  Here please take my rights and freedom...

All coins should be automatically washed by the protocol - this was an oversight.  First, we wouldn't have to have this same damn conversation every time someone washes coins that you personally think should not be able to.  Second, that way it would be impossible to black/gray/red/white list coins and Bitcoin would have a fighting chance of remaining the fungible money we all want it to be.

Unless you don't want it to remain fungible and you are here to destroy it with your anti-fungibility antics?

Privacy is critical for the functioning of the Bitcoin system.  Without it the whole experiment will fail.  With it comes some new things like not being able to track/trace/refund/destroy coins that in your personal opinion are "bad" coins.

I fully support bitmixer.  They provide a valuable and essential service for the Bitcoin ecosystem.

By all means go after criminals.  Go after them with everything at your disposal - just don't expect to be able to do it by tracing Bitcoin transactions.  Find another way.

Something like this (if true) would certainly be better than destroying Bitcoin in order to try to make it more like your favorite government issued toilet paper:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=693621.0;topicseen

[petestheman]

We should learn from this. I think mixers should require some sort of proof of ownership of bitcoins for mixes of more than 10btc. Mixing over $700,000 worth of bitcoins without asking how he/she obtained them is ridiculous.

[ashish12]

We should learn from this. I think mixers should require some sort of proof of ownership of bitcoins for mixes of more than 10btc. Mixing over $700,000 worth of bitcoins without asking how he/she obtained them is ridiculous.

that is anonymity

[jambola2]

We should learn from this. I think mixers should require some sort of proof of ownership of bitcoins for mixes of more than 10btc. Mixing over $700,000 worth of bitcoins without asking how he/she obtained them is ridiculous.

If you had just read the previous post , you would have not posted this.

If have 11 BTC and I want my privacy.
There would be no "proof of ownership" you speak of without giving up your personal information.

They don't ask how they are obtained because they are trying to do the exact opposite.
They are trying to eliminate any possible way to trace their client.
Tracing their client first , to eliminate the possible ways to trace them as you say would be hypocritical.

[BITMIXER.IO]

Like a TOR, our service has not been designed for criminals. It was designed for guard privacy. Like a TOR, our service is used by criminals as well. But as I said if we can't guard criminal, we can't guard nobody including you.

btw, we have a big lack - fixed fee. Look deeper here hunters.

[The Avenger]

Like a TOR, our service has not been designed for criminals. It was designed for guard privacy. Like a TOR, our service is used by criminals as well. But as I said if we can't guard criminal, we can't guard nobody including you.

btw, we have a big lack - fixed fee. Look deeper here hunters.

That's a pretty weak argument, as it's exactly the same argument you used the last time. Not got anything more substantial to say to defend yourself other than "who knew criminals would flock to a money laudering service?".

Also, if you feel what you do is so legitimate, please provide your real name, address of your business, full details of your business, tax information etc.

I don't see that. Because you know that while some may argue on an intellectual, idealogical level that money laundering is good for bitcoin - in practice, the only people who use this service on a significant scale are those laundering stolen bitcoin.

But like I said, if you are truly providing a legitimate service that is not meant solely for use by criminals, please provide your real name, address of your business, profits and losses for the year, tax information etc.

In conclusion, I would say your service IS designed for criminals. But backed by some intellectual idea that it's good for bitcoin.

But those intellectuals won't be in court when you are charged with laundering $750,000 of stolen bitcoin and knew you were doing it.

Try explaining hiding the proceeds of a $750,000 crime to a judge in the real world with your argument about guarding criminals. How do you think that would turn out?

[Justin00]

Can someone TL;DR this ?
I am going to guess you guys are blaming bitmixer because the hacker used that service ?
bit of a stupid argument if my guess is correct.

why not blame microsoft or firefox....... dot dot....

[petestheman]

We should learn from this. I think mixers should require some sort of proof of ownership of bitcoins for mixes of more than 10btc. Mixing over $700,000 worth of bitcoins without asking how he/she obtained them is ridiculous.

If you had just read the previous post , you would have not posted this.

If have 11 BTC and I want my privacy.
There would be no "proof of ownership" you speak of without giving up your personal information.

They don't ask how they are obtained because they are trying to do the exact opposite.
They are trying to eliminate any possible way to trace their client.
Tracing their client first , to eliminate the possible ways to trace them as you say would be hypocritical.

That is true but they burn all their files every twelve hours which we know is true or else klee wouldn't have been screwed so it does not really matter that they have your information because you know that they will not hold onto it.

[itod]

But like I said, if you are truly providing a legitimate service that is not meant solely for use by criminals, please provide your real name, address of your business, profits and losses for the year, tax information etc.

Real name? What happened to the right to be anonymous, as one of the core principles of bitcoin?

Profits and losses for the year? Why would private entity, which does not sell it's stocks on the market publish their financial data?

Tax information? I thought we were aiming for global, virtual, corporations which are not subdued to any government or state authority, what happened to those goals?

Nobody is supporting criminals, but calling the government(s) to protect us from those individuals is playing right into the politicians hands. I would not be surprised if those criminals were in fact some agencies who want to show us we are small and we need security they provide, not freedom from their authority.

[BurtW]

Avenger, it sounds like Bitcoin is not for you.  What you are looking for is USD.  These are easily traced and tracked.  But expect to give up all your personal information and ownership of your money when you open an account and make a deposit.  You can open up an account at your local bank.

[jambola2]

We should learn from this. I think mixers should require some sort of proof of ownership of bitcoins for mixes of more than 10btc. Mixing over $700,000 worth of bitcoins without asking how he/she obtained them is ridiculous.

If you had just read the previous post , you would have not posted this.

If have 11 BTC and I want my privacy.
There would be no "proof of ownership" you speak of without giving up your personal information.

They don't ask how they are obtained because they are trying to do the exact opposite.
They are trying to eliminate any possible way to trace their client.
Tracing their client first , to eliminate the possible ways to trace them as you say would be hypocritical.

That is true but they burn all their files every twelve hours which we know is true or else klee wouldn't have been screwed so it does not really matter that they have your information because you know that they will not hold onto it.

I didn't say that it would help the government trace their customers.
I said it would be hypocritical.

They will be going against what they stand for , what they do.
Bitmixer will then have 100% information about everyone.

Secondly , how do you prove that you own the Bitcoins ?