klee's hacked 1170 btc, Part II

[BurtW]

You are thick and can't/don't read.  I am not anti-privacy. Also, you do not speak for the entire bitcoin community. Read what I wrote and comment appropriately. Or else go away if you can't comprehend what is being said and discuss it without putting words into my mouth.

OK, I am willing to back up to make sure I understood what you are saying, this is what I heard:

1) You believe that bitmixer should provide information about the thief.  If they do not you say they are equally guilty, right?
2) In order to do that they would have to collect information on their customers, right?
3) You also believe that bitmixer should be totally public about who they are, where their business is located, otherwise you say they are not legit and their only purpose must be to server criminals - the old "if you have nothing to hide why do you want your privacy" meme.
4) If this were true then the government would come knocking on their door and demand to see their customer records.  You know this.

Correct me where I misunderstood your thinking here.

[CIYAM]

In regards to the whole fungibility and mixing issue I think we need to remember one thing first.

It was Klee who left his passwords in an unencrypted text file and who had not put any coins into "cold storage" (and he has admitted that this was his own fault).

Although I don't condone stealing for a second if you leave a pile of gold nuggets in glass box sitting in your lounge room do you think the police are going to be starting a huge manhunt when said gold goes missing?

Anonymity and privacy require people to be able to do their own security and unfortunately that is not something that most are used to (they are more used to having governments and banks look after them).

The best advice to people is "secure your bitcoins" rather then arguing about whether mixers should be shut down (if thieves can't get your coins in the first place then there is no need to be worried about them mixing them later).

[The Avenger]

Okay. What I'm reading says "no one has the right to their own property in bitcoin community".

Theft is fair game.

Therefore, everyone please send me every single bitcoin you possess.

Don't worry! I won't say you gave it to me willingly! We can make up some story about how I stole it.

If you don't, then I will put you on my ignore list (< blackmail).

So that's the theft and blackmail, which everyone here supports.

Once I have the funds, I will put them through a mixer, the kind of money laundering that is also cool and acceptable with everyone here.


Once you've done that, we can continue this discussion.

I really need you to put your money where your mouth is to truly believe what you are saying. It'll be a principled stand to do this, to back up your words with every single bitcoin you possess.

Please send me a message once you have sent me ALL you bitcoin, including the story you would like to propagate about how I stole them. It will need to be kind of plausible, like gmail hack or weak passwords etc. We can work on the story together if you are not very imaginative.

I will then comment on your message in this thread.

Given what I've read, this is totally reasonable and agreeable here. But once they have gone through the mixer, that is the end of story - I don't want anyone complaining or asking for them back.

P.S. I'll need to wait for 6 confirmations before I post replies. This message is directed to everyone in this thread who is ok with money-laundering etc.

P.P.S. It really needs to be a staggering, jaw dropping amount. Every single bitcoin you own. The sort of amount if you lost, you'd contempt throwing yourself off a bridge. And while you are watching everything you once owned go through a mixer, knowing you will never ever get it back - only then will you truly be able to see how you feel about mixers/money laundering. Please take part in recreating this situation with every bitcoin you own and putting your money where you mouth is. The experience will be worth it, I guarantee you.

[CIYAM]

Okay. What I'm reading says "no one has the right to their own property in bitcoin community".

Theft is fair game.

Where exactly did you read that from my post?

My point was that if you have something of value *you secure it* (otherwise why do we have companies that make safes?).

Klee decided not to secure his BTC other than through a single password to a dropbox account. This was my point about leaving gold nuggets in a glass display case (in a home with a standard lock if you couldn't infer that).

[BurtW]

I am getting tired of repeating myself as I am sure you are too.

Here is all I really want to say:

Coin mixing is fundamentally required in order to prevent coin listing and the destruction of the fungibility of Bitcoin.  For coin mixing to work for this purpose it must be anon and hopefully some day fully automatic.  If people steal Bitcoins they should be caught and punished.  If/When coin mixing is the norm you will not be able to use the blockchain to track stolen money so these early thefts using coin mixers are a great opportunity to develop other ways to catch the criminals.

[damiano]

Well, bitmixer did not know that coins were stolen, they provide mixing service to anyone. Just because they confirmed afterwards of hacker using their service does not make them involved in the thieft.

I hope klee get his funds back but we all need to take security very seriusly.

At the time they didn't, but now bitmixer is well aware that they are stolen funds.  To top it off they are now allowing the funds to be mixed. 

At this point they are assisting the criminal and they are an accomplice in this mess.

[RocketSingh]

Like a TOR, our service has not been designed for criminals. It was designed for guard privacy. Like a TOR, our service is used by criminals as well. But as I said if we can't guard criminal, we can't guard nobody including you.

btw, we have a big lack - fixed fee. Look deeper here hunters.

Have someone hunted this part ?

[alfabitcoin]

Well, bitmixer did not know that coins were stolen, they provide mixing service to anyone. Just because they confirmed afterwards of hacker using their service does not make them involved in the thieft.

I hope klee get his funds back but we all need to take security very seriusly.

At the time they didn't, but now bitmixer is well aware that they are stolen funds.  To top it off they are now allowing the funds to be mixed.  

At this point they are assisting the criminal and they are an accomplice in this mess.

Again, coins are mixed and hacker has new ( fresh ) coins what was completed after 12 hrs when he sent stolen funds. Mixer does not even have forward address, so how they are involved knowlingly? It goes autimaticly. That time 12hrs can be adjusted too.
I suggest you to read how bitmixer works.

What to you supose them to do? They did not know that they were stolen and now can not do anything about it. Hacker/theift sent them stolen coins and after 12 hrs hacker got "fresh" coins what bitmixer had already in their pool. Only after this completition they posted in bitcointalk how hacker used their service.
Bad things happen, such service exist, klee had poor security and he has only one to blame here. That is reallity, its not ideal but we do not live in ideal world and think never will - human nature.

[The Avenger]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=216447

I will remove if bitmixer.io can prove conclusively they did not launder klee's stolen coins.

I will also remove in the event bitmixer.io return to klee all remaining BTC that was stolen from him (at this time, that total is 925BTC).

[Gimmelfarb]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=216447

I will remove if bitmixer.io can prove conclusively they did not launder klee's stolen coins.

I will also remove in the event bitmixer.io return to klee all remaining BTC that was stolen from him (at this time, that total is 925BTC).

it seems your issue is with bitcoin mixers in general. bitmixer is not the only such service, and i think you'll have a difficult time convincing bitcoiners with this crusade.

[The Avenger]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=216447

I will remove if bitmixer.io can prove conclusively they did not launder klee's stolen coins.

I will also remove in the event bitmixer.io return to klee all remaining BTC that was stolen from him (at this time, that total is 925BTC).

it seems your issue is with bitcoin mixers in general.

Another person putting words into my mouth.

I have not gone round every mixer service and commented on their trustworthiness. Just this one, for very particular reasons discussed in this thread. So how do you come to this stupid conclusion??

Can morons stop putting words in my mouth. thanks!

I am very capable of speaking for myself, sometimes with large fonts, so maybe it will get through to your brains.

[BurtW]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=216447

I will remove if bitmixer.io can prove conclusively they did not launder klee's stolen coins.

I will also remove in the event bitmixer.io return to klee all remaining BTC that was stolen from him (at this time, that total is 925BTC).

OK, now you are looking stupid.  You know they laundered those specific coins because we traced them and they said they did.  Why the totally bogus "I will remove if bitmixer.io can prove conclusively they did not launder klee's stolen coins."?  They cannot prove they did not do it because they did - and already said so.  You know that, they know that, everyone knows that.  Your statement is logically equivalent to "I will never remove this"

They are never going to return the coins.  You also know this.  Why should they?  They have no reason to.  Your dinging their trust will not faze them in the least little bit.

And every mixer will mix any coins they get.  None of them check the source of the coins - none of them.  So your issue is with the entire concept of anon coin mixing.  In your eyes all mixers are guilty because all mixers have and will continue to mix stolen coins.  You do not like that and you want it to stop.  That is obvious from your posts.  Good luck with that.

[The Avenger]

In your eyes all mixers are guilty because all mixers have and will continue to mix stolen coins.

Another person putting words into my mouth.

I have not gone round every mixer service and commented on their trustworthiness. Just this one, for very particular reasons discussed in this thread. So how do you come to this stupid conclusion??

Can morons stop putting words in my mouth. thanks!

I am very capable of speaking for myself, sometimes with large fonts, so maybe it will get through to your brains.

[Gimmelfarb]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=216447

I will remove if bitmixer.io can prove conclusively they did not launder klee's stolen coins.

I will also remove in the event bitmixer.io return to klee all remaining BTC that was stolen from him (at this time, that total is 925BTC).

it seems your issue is with bitcoin mixers in general.

Another person putting words into my mouth.

I have not gone round every mixer service and commented on their trustworthiness. Just this one, for very particular reasons discussed in this thread. So how do you come to this stupid conclusion??

and why do you take particular issue here, considering many other bitcoin mixers have presumably laundered many more coins in a similar fashion? you just feel it's necessary to crusade against one mixer, one time, for a case that's been duplicated countless times?

[Wendigo]

I really can't understand why do you care so much what other people do with their finances. Jealousy?

[BurtW]

BTW you lied on your trust report.  You report that you risked 1170 BTC with the service.  You did not.  Your risk was 0.  They were not your coins.  You did not use the service.

Unless.....

Are you are the hacker that used the service?  That is what you imply in your trust report.

[acs267]

In your eyes all mixers are guilty because all mixers have and will continue to mix stolen coins.

Another person putting words into my mouth.

I have not gone round every mixer service and commented on their trustworthiness. Just this one, for very particular reasons discussed in this thread. So how do you come to this stupid conclusion??

Can morons stop putting words in my mouth. thanks!

I am very capable of speaking for myself, sometimes with large fonts, so maybe it will get through to your brains.

Making text bigger doesn't 'get through to our brains'. Write like a normal person. It outlines it better than bigger text.

[alfabitcoin]

Idea..
How about mixing service without a fee? How all you would react if bitmixer did not charged anything in this case?
But maybe we are getting to off topic here.

[BurtW]

Idea..
How about mixing service without a fee? How all you would react if bitmixer did not charged anything in this case?
But maybe we are getting to off topic here.

Yes, coin mixing should be a standard part of the protocol and used on every transaction.  Sending a direct transaction that can be traced should cost a lot extra, maybe even 10x or more of the cost of a mixed transaction.

That would be ideal.  We must work toward that goal.

[The Avenger]

Idea..
How about mixing service without a fee? How all you would react if bitmixer did not charged anything in this case?
But maybe we are getting to off topic here.

That's interesting. Without the incentive (no fees), but with the risk (that they could be caught for laundering), I doubt anyone would provide the "service".

But if they did, then I'd think again for sure.

At this point in time though, it pretty clear what the motive of this "service" is.