Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[PeanutCoins]

With such a large campaign underway in Gaza and one which bears the hallmarks of previous larger Israeli military actions it looks as if Israel might be gearing up for another ground incursion into the strip as they call up reservists.

The operation is largely seen as 1.) A response to the three Israeli students who were abducted and killed in the West Bank and 2.) a response to rocket and mortar fire coming out of Gaza.

While accurate numbers are hard to obtain in a constantly changing and escalating situation: So far the operation has seen about 232 raids (the firing of roughly 362 missiles), shelling of the strip by Israeli naval vessals (about 142 shells), and artillery strikes from Israeli armored units (about 46 tank shells). Overall, more than 400 targets have been struck. About 169 rockets have been fired toward Israel from Gaza during the same time period. (largely since Monday so over a 48 hour period since Wednesday's data isn't included yet).

A vast majority of the deaths (total deaths of around 24 or so) thus far have been civilian and have occurred when civilian homes were targeted by the IAF.

Elsewhere the Israeli military, likely acting on orders given for political PR purposes, have demolished family homes of current primary suspects in the kidnapping and murder of the three Israeli children. Such demolitions have long been considered by the Israeli military to be counter productive in anti-militant operations, and are considered under international law a form of collective punishment practices which are illegal. A further 381 people were arrested, largely without charge in the West Bank during the search for the students (and close to 2,000 homes and buildings searched without warrants).

[noviapriani]

I don't know what to make of the reports of Gazans moving into a building after Israel calls and sends warning shots that the house will be destroyed.

[sana8410]

They were confirmed by the UN. The building was evacuated after the warning missile, but neighbors went to the rooftops to deter the strike of a civilian home and the likely destruction and damaging of theirs. The second strike on the target killed them.

Not a smart move on their part, but there is also no legal justification for the targeting of such a civilian home in the first place. Amnesty International was pretty quick to respond to the incident, as was OCHA. Other homes have likewise been targeted in the operation thus far, though none on Monday and Tuesday that were quite so tragic.

[noviapriani]

They were confirmed by the UN. The building was evacuated after the warning missile, but neighbors went to the rooftops to deter the strike of a civilian home and the likely destruction and damaging of theirs. The second strike on the target killed them.

Not a smart move on their part, but there is also no legal justification for the targeting of such a civilian home in the first place. Amnesty International was pretty quick to respond to the incident, as was OCHA. Other homes have likewise been targeted in the operation thus far, though none on Monday and Tuesday that were quite so tragic.

I'm not sure if the interpretation should be that they are idiots or if I should consider them closer to the monks who practice self-immolation. Although now that I think of it, I'm not sure what I should think about those monks either.

[sana8410]

They were confirmed by the UN. The building was evacuated after the warning missile, but neighbors went to the rooftops to deter the strike of a civilian home and the likely destruction and damaging of theirs. The second strike on the target killed them.

Not a smart move on their part, but there is also no legal justification for the targeting of such a civilian home in the first place. Amnesty International was pretty quick to respond to the incident, as was OCHA. Other homes have likewise been targeted in the operation thus far, though none on Monday and Tuesday that were quite so tragic.

I'm not sure if the interpretation should be that they are idiots or if I should consider them closer to the monks who practice self-immolation. Although now that I think of it, I'm not sure what I should think about those monks either.

I don't think they expected to die. It seems more like a standing in front of bulldozers type of protest, only with a higher chance of failure. I don't think they felt that Israel would strike if they were seen there, but it got bombed anyway.

[noviapriani]

I guess from a practical/political point of view, if people find out that you are running into a building like that just to make a political point, it's likely to backfire. if people don't find out though, then i guess it works.

[Rigon]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

[johnathan32]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

You're right, a lot of people in the world do not understand the situation in Israel is much more complicated, the Israelis want to live in peace, the problem that the State of Palestine is conducted by the Hamas government and the Islamic Jihad, if done well it's like negotiate with al Qaeda or Hezbollah are organizations of terror did not want the existence of Israel, and worse than that Israel is trying to protect itself so well is sometimes harms innocent civilians but because Hamas shoots rockets at Israeli kindergartens, schools, and hiding the rockets basement home family living upstairs, so how Israel can protect its people and to give her some peace?? ... still not found a solution and it's really hard!

[u9y42]

You're right, a lot of people in the world do not understand the situation in Israel is much more complicated, the Israelis want to live in peace, the problem that the State of Palestine is conducted by the Hamas government and the Islamic Jihad, if done well it's like negotiate with al Qaeda or Hezbollah are organizations of terror did not want the existence of Israel, and worse than that Israel is trying to protect itself so well is sometimes harms innocent civilians but because Hamas shoots rockets at Israeli kindergartens, schools, and hiding the rockets basement home family living upstairs, so how Israel can protect its people and to give her some peace?? ... still not found a solution and it's really hard!

Seems like you covered just about all the media talking points there; but let me try and expand upon them a little further.

Yes, everyone wants peace. Hell, even Genghis Khan wanted peace - on his own terms; what others wanted was of no concern. Israel also wants peace of course - and also in its own terms. Let's not forget that the Palestinians have been under occupation for half a century, and more recently under cruel and sub-human conditions imposed on them by Israel. Remember, the official Israeli policy towards the population of the occupied territories is to keep them at a level consistent with an humanitarian crisis, while not pushing them over the edge completely - we know this thanks to Wikileaks.

Does this justify extremism among Palestinians? Not in my view; but it's the expected consequence of treating people like animals. It seems to me that the best way for Israel to "defend" itself is to stop beating Palestinians down, and stop the occupation, which in turn will lead to a decrease in the support for extremist tactics.

And then there is this attempt at whitewashing Israel's image by saying that it does everything in its power not to kill civilians - you think that Israel "sometimes harms innocents"? Have you even been following the news lately? I wouldn't call 80% civilian casualties in this conflict "sometimes". But what do you expect when you're bombing a densely populated area with warships, air strikes and artillery? And does Hamas' using their own population as shields justify Israel committing these atrocities, especially when it is the occupying power?

[cryptasm]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

You're right, a lot of people in the world do not understand the situation in Israel is much more complicated, the Israelis want to live in peace, the problem that the State of Palestine is conducted by the Hamas government and the Islamic Jihad, if done well it's like negotiate with al Qaeda or Hezbollah are organizations of terror did not want the existence of Israel, and worse than that Israel is trying to protect itself so well is sometimes harms innocent civilians but because Hamas shoots rockets at Israeli kindergartens, schools, and hiding the rockets basement home family living upstairs, so how Israel can protect its people and to give her some peace?? ... still not found a solution and it's really hard!

Terrorism from either side is wrong but put into context, more Israelis die from peanut allergies than Palestinian rockets.

[hollowframe]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

You're right, a lot of people in the world do not understand the situation in Israel is much more complicated, the Israelis want to live in peace, the problem that the State of Palestine is conducted by the Hamas government and the Islamic Jihad, if done well it's like negotiate with al Qaeda or Hezbollah are organizations of terror did not want the existence of Israel, and worse than that Israel is trying to protect itself so well is sometimes harms innocent civilians but because Hamas shoots rockets at Israeli kindergartens, schools, and hiding the rockets basement home family living upstairs, so how Israel can protect its people and to give her some peace?? ... still not found a solution and it's really hard!

I would disagree that Israel should be blamed as they are not the aggressor but is rather defending themselves from terrorists. They have tried many times to reach peace agreements, and have tried to spare the citizens of Gaza, but the terrorists have decided to instead use the citizens as human shields.

[Smack That Ace]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=693357.0

Catch up !!!

[u9y42]

I would disagree that Israel should be blamed as they are not the aggressor but is rather defending themselves from terrorists. They have tried many times to reach peace agreements, and have tried to spare the citizens of Gaza, but the terrorists have decided to instead use the citizens as human shields.

I find it amazing that people say these things without bothering to fact check any of it.

Perhaps you missed current events, but the Palestinians have been occupied for the last half century by Israel; I don't know about you, but I consider that to be a form of aggression, especially considering the sub-human conditions Israel is intentionally imposing on them - you know, the whole "keep them almost at a level consistent with an humanitarian crisis", as we know from Wikileaks. That isn't consistent with someone who is claiming to be "defending" themselves from an aggressor, and wanting to reach peace.

And how exactly is Israel trying to spare civilians while keeping them under fire from artillery, naval warships, and air strikes, which have left 80% of all casualties being civilian? Also, even if Hamas is using their own population as human shields, what gives Israel the right to murder them anyway?

EDIT: Oh, I forgot to add - Israel also has a tendency to hit vital infrastructure each time it attacks the occupied territories. I haven't seen this confirmed elsewhere yet, but this time it seems to have affected the water supply, which may end up leaving up to a third of the population in Gaza without access to water.

[umair127]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

When it comes to your first paragraph, I support a two state solution. You said the older you get. Well, the older I get, about a month away from my 30th birthday, the more I see that compromise is necessary to get the violence to stop. And I have experience because I have been to Israel twice, I have a Bachelor's in Political Science, and I have served in Kuwait in the U.S. Army. So I have been to and studied the Middle East quite a lot. And once again, I say a two state solution is the best solution.

I do agree that both sides are mutually guilty of causing escalation of violence. That is why they should do more talking and less fighting. And then back up their negotiating words with actions. I personally think Prime Minister Netanyahu should pull settlers out of the West Bank and Mahmoud Abbas should cut ties with Hamas completely.

I do not see Israel as a theocracy. While they do observe the Sabbath, they still are fairly secular. I saw people with tattoos in Israel almost everywhere I went, except in the ultra-orthodox areas, and tattoos are against Jewish law. So I think Israel is more secular than religious.

[Rigon]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

When it comes to your first paragraph, I support a two state solution. You said the older you get. Well, the older I get, about a month away from my 30th birthday, the more I see that compromise is necessary to get the violence to stop. And I have experience because I have been to Israel twice, I have a Bachelor's in Political Science, and I have served in Kuwait in the U.S. Army. So I have been to and studied the Middle East quite a lot. And once again, I say a two state solution is the best solution.

I do agree that both sides are mutually guilty of causing escalation of violence. That is why they should do more talking and less fighting. And then back up their negotiating words with actions. I personally think Prime Minister Netanyahu should pull settlers out of the West Bank and Mahmoud Abbas should cut ties with Hamas completely.

I do not see Israel as a theocracy. While they do observe the Sabbath, they still are fairly secular. I saw people with tattoos in Israel almost everywhere I went, except in the ultra-orthodox areas, and tattoos are against Jewish law. So I think Israel is more secular than religious.

When I was your age, I also thought wonderful thoughts about world peace and shit.Now i see this things with different eyes.

[umair127]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

When it comes to your first paragraph, I support a two state solution. You said the older you get. Well, the older I get, about a month away from my 30th birthday, the more I see that compromise is necessary to get the violence to stop. And I have experience because I have been to Israel twice, I have a Bachelor's in Political Science, and I have served in Kuwait in the U.S. Army. So I have been to and studied the Middle East quite a lot. And once again, I say a two state solution is the best solution.

I do agree that both sides are mutually guilty of causing escalation of violence. That is why they should do more talking and less fighting. And then back up their negotiating words with actions. I personally think Prime Minister Netanyahu should pull settlers out of the West Bank and Mahmoud Abbas should cut ties with Hamas completely.

I do not see Israel as a theocracy. While they do observe the Sabbath, they still are fairly secular. I saw people with tattoos in Israel almost everywhere I went, except in the ultra-orthodox areas, and tattoos are against Jewish law. So I think Israel is more secular than religious.

When I was your age, I also thought wonderful thoughts about world peace and shit.Now i see this things with different eyes.

I support a two-state solution because I believe it would be naive to take one side or another as being right in this conflict. I think both sides have their share of blame.

[sana8410]

The older I get, the more cynical I get. I'm at the point where I think it's best if things escalate totally out of control, and the resulting deaths and destruction on both sides are so horrid they agree to stop. I don't know if that would work out, but I truly doubt there is any other solution to this shit.

Both sides share a lot of blame, and I can't say I have much sympathy for any of the combatants. Blaming Israel alone is naïve, especially when you consider that every school anywhere in the middle east has maps that show that Israel doesn't exist, and they are constantly taught that Israel took their land and are evil. That is undeniable, and it forces a continuation of generational blood feuds. It's never ending hate propaganda.

Defending Israel is equally ludicrous. When you get right down to it, Israel is a theocracy...or the next best thing to that...trying to say it's a liberal democracy. It cannot ever be a liberal democracy, because the Palestinians would take control of the country in very few years.

You're right, a lot of people in the world do not understand the situation in Israel is much more complicated, the Israelis want to live in peace, the problem that the State of Palestine is conducted by the Hamas government and the Islamic Jihad, if done well it's like negotiate with al Qaeda or Hezbollah are organizations of terror did not want the existence of Israel, and worse than that Israel is trying to protect itself so well is sometimes harms innocent civilians but because Hamas shoots rockets at Israeli kindergartens, schools, and hiding the rockets basement home family living upstairs, so how Israel can protect its people and to give her some peace?? ... still not found a solution and it's really hard!

I don't see a solution either until Israel's population becomes liberal enough to form a government that doesn't depend on smaller highly conservative kingmaker parties. They came close with Livni, but that's how we ended up with Netanyahu and since then the conservative bloc has only gotten stronger.

I certainly hope that it doesn't come to what you described and I honestly don't see that happening, the sides are too uneven for Israel to be ravaged enough to come to terms.

Though I don't think it is cynical to suggest that sometimes that is how conflicts need to (unfortunately) end. That's what happened with Liberia, that's what it took in Chad, that's what it took in the DRC, etc. I'm worried that is how Syria will have to end up and potentially Iraq as well.

[cryptofan5]

Civilian deaths among Palestinians are terrible, however I don't know what country would tolerate rockets being shot at it by neighbors. Imagine rockets fired from New Jersey to New York and all people in NewYork have to sit in shelters. I am reading that IAF is dropping liflets, making phone calls, doing what they can to avoid civilian lives. What else would you do?

[sana8410]

In a conflict so long blaming any one party would be naive, as far as current politics go, Israel is the main obstacle to peace. Hamas doesn't help of course, but Israel could easily marginalize them through dealings with Fatah if they had wanted to cede to a two state solution. The conflict has continued over the past several years because there hasn't been the political will for a settlement in Israel under Olmert or Netanyahu.

Even now the Netanyahu administration is largely using this incident as an excuse to throw a tantrum over the unity government construction and target Hamas like they have in the past in hopes that they can break up the new government. It has been a fairly standard (and unfortunately effective) tactic. Most of the rockets coming into Israel haven't even been fired by Hamas, yet it has been primarily Hamas' infrastructure and activists that have thus far been bombed in the operation and it was primarily Hamas sympathizers that were arbitrarily detained without charge in the West Bank during the search.

[zolace]

In a conflict so long blaming any one party would be naive, as far as current politics go, Israel is the main obstacle to peace. Hamas doesn't help of course, but Israel could easily marginalize them through dealings with Fatah if they had wanted to cede to a two state solution. The conflict has continued over the past several years because there hasn't been the political will for a settlement in Israel under Olmert or Netanyahu.

Even now the Netanyahu administration is largely using this incident as an excuse to throw a tantrum over the unity government construction and target Hamas like they have in the past in hopes that they can break up the new government. It has been a fairly standard (and unfortunately effective) tactic. Most of the rockets coming into Israel haven't even been fired by Hamas, yet it has been primarily Hamas' infrastructure and activists that have thus far been bombed in the operation and it was primarily Hamas sympathizers that were arbitrarily detained without charge in the West Bank during the search.

Seems like a fairly restrained response considering Hamas's penchant for firing rockets at Israeli civilians. Even if they respond with home demolitions, I'd call it totally reasonable and justified since Hamas's tactics are essentially collective punishment to begin with. Really, all terrorism is just collective punishment committed by a weak force against a stronger one and can only be deterred by the stronger party being willing to escalate to a much more extreme level of violence.

You can start calling the Israeli response disproportionate when Gaza looks like Grozny.