Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[sana8410]

What do the people in Palestine and Israel want though? I've heard more than enough of what the leadership thinks. Where do the people stand, in relation to the struggle and their leaderships' inability to deal with it?

[umair127]

What do the people in Palestine and Israel want though? I've heard more than enough of what the leadership thinks. Where do the people stand, in relation to the struggle and their leaderships' inability to deal with it?

Domestic polls have long showed that both sides generally want peace based on a two state solution (it tends to fluctuate a little more in Israel depending on circumstances). I'm more familiar with the Palestinian numbers there (3/4ths two state peace) than I am with the Israeli numbers.

One of the problems of governments past, is that in coalition governments like Israel, you have kingmaker parties: small parties that can make or break coalitions for the larger parties. These kingmaker parties in Israel tend to be highly conservative, which means that if you want to be prime minister you have to do certain things to mollify them like not halt settlement expansion.

[noviapriani]

What do the people in Palestine and Israel want though? I've heard more than enough of what the leadership thinks. Where do the people stand, in relation to the struggle and their leaderships' inability to deal with it?

I guess if I was israeli i'd feel relatively ok with the status quo (compared to easily foreseeable alternatives) and if i was palestinian i'd feel completely fucked and hopeless, with basically no good moves to make.

[sana8410]

What do the people in Palestine and Israel want though? I've heard more than enough of what the leadership thinks. Where do the people stand, in relation to the struggle and their leaderships' inability to deal with it?

Domestic polls have long showed that both sides generally want peace based on a two state solution (it tends to fluctuate a little more in Israel depending on circumstances). I'm more familiar with the Palestinian numbers there (3/4ths two state peace) than I am with the Israeli numbers.

One of the problems of governments past, is that in coalition governments like Israel, you have kingmaker parties: small parties that can make or break coalitions for the larger parties. These kingmaker parties in Israel tend to be highly conservative, which means that if you want to be prime minister you have to do certain things to mollify them like not halt settlement expansion.

Really? I was just looking at polls yesterday at I remember seeing that the majority of Palestinians do not support a two state solution? I need to find the source though.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...pragmatism-too

[noviapriani]

What do the people in Palestine and Israel want though? I've heard more than enough of what the leadership thinks. Where do the people stand, in relation to the struggle and their leaderships' inability to deal with it?

Domestic polls have long showed that both sides generally want peace based on a two state solution (it tends to fluctuate a little more in Israel depending on circumstances). I'm more familiar with the Palestinian numbers there (3/4ths two state peace) than I am with the Israeli numbers.

One of the problems of governments past, is that in coalition governments like Israel, you have kingmaker parties: small parties that can make or break coalitions for the larger parties. These kingmaker parties in Israel tend to be highly conservative, which means that if you want to be prime minister you have to do certain things to mollify them like not halt settlement expansion.

Really? I was just looking at polls yesterday at I remember seeing that the majority of Palestinians do not support a two state solution? I need to find the source though.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...pragmatism-too

I'm a little wary of polls that offer sudden huge shifts in long standing general opinion. I'd keep watching to see if it is a reactionary spike or a legitimate new emerging long run trend of thought. But Palestinian attitudes are also subject to the politics of the day and with volatile politics opinions are going to change a lot too. I could believe it, but I think it has a lot to do with disillusionment with the peace process since 2005 - 2006. Abbas sitting at the peace table waiting for Israel has really weakened his administration and the idea of a two state solution as nothing gets better. It's honestly one reason why Israeli administrations are so frustrating to those seeking a resolution to the conflict. The opportunity is there and it is being squandered for domestic political gains in Israel proper. Meanwhile a new generation of Palestinians grow up seeing Abbas as an Israeli puppet because he won't fight back against perceived (and rightfully so) abuses to their general population. It easily makes the Israeli-Palestinian conflict one of the most frustrating conflicts in the world to follow even if it isn't the most violent.

[noviapriani]

I'd also have to disagree a bit on their interpretation of the data. They say in one of their slides that a two state solution is 'suddenly in the minority' but their was no two state solution option given as a possible response to the question, nor was the question about the resolution of conflict between Israel and Palestine.

[sana8410]

I'd also have to disagree a bit on their interpretation of the data. They say in one of their slides that a two state solution is 'suddenly in the minority' but their was no two state solution option given as a possible response to the question, nor was the question about the resolution of conflict between Israel and Palestine.

That's true, but the question about the main goal for five years is pretty telling..
but your point about reactionism and a true lasting trend is well taken. It would be cool if israel somehow pursued this. but it's not reasonable to expect in the near future.

[noviapriani]

I'd also have to disagree a bit on their interpretation of the data. They say in one of their slides that a two state solution is 'suddenly in the minority' but their was no two state solution option given as a possible response to the question, nor was the question about the resolution of conflict between Israel and Palestine.

That's true, but the question about the main goal for five years is pretty telling..
but your point about reactionism and a true lasting trend is well taken. It would be cool if israel somehow pursued this. but it's not reasonable to expect in the near future.

At first glance perhaps, but that is a matter of ideology and doesn't really have much bearing on peace talks and what is going wrong with them (though it could have the potential but there isn't enough info given to connect the two). The trouble is the poll doesn't offer any meaningful connection between that expressed ideology and how it impacts views on peace talks with Israel; the poll also suffers from a lack of definitions.

It would be nice if they had actually asked Palestinians if they would support a two state solution based on 1967 borders.

[sana8410]

I'd also have to disagree a bit on their interpretation of the data. They say in one of their slides that a two state solution is 'suddenly in the minority' but their was no two state solution option given as a possible response to the question, nor was the question about the resolution of conflict between Israel and Palestine.

That's true, but the question about the main goal for five years is pretty telling..
but your point about reactionism and a true lasting trend is well taken. It would be cool if israel somehow pursued this. but it's not reasonable to expect in the near future.

At first glance perhaps, but that is a matter of ideology and doesn't really have much bearing on peace talks and what is going wrong with them (though it could have the potential but there isn't enough info given to connect the two). The trouble is the poll doesn't offer any meaningful connection between that expressed ideology and how it impacts views on peace talks with Israel; the poll also suffers from a lack of definitions.

It would be nice if they had actually asked Palestinians if they would support a two state solution based on 1967 borders.

I think this goes back to the reconciliation issue that Palestinians tend to favor at a little over 60% or even higher given some sort of mutual economic relationship. Overall, yes, we do see the hardline largely youth movement that is very militant and wants to drive Israel into the sea, but the vast majority of Palestinians seem to largely just want to be treated as humans and enjoy basic rights and freedoms that they have been increasingly denied since the late 30's to late 40's.

[noviapriani]

I'd also have to disagree a bit on their interpretation of the data. They say in one of their slides that a two state solution is 'suddenly in the minority' but their was no two state solution option given as a possible response to the question, nor was the question about the resolution of conflict between Israel and Palestine.

That's true, but the question about the main goal for five years is pretty telling..
but your point about reactionism and a true lasting trend is well taken. It would be cool if israel somehow pursued this. but it's not reasonable to expect in the near future.

At first glance perhaps, but that is a matter of ideology and doesn't really have much bearing on peace talks and what is going wrong with them (though it could have the potential but there isn't enough info given to connect the two). The trouble is the poll doesn't offer any meaningful connection between that expressed ideology and how it impacts views on peace talks with Israel; the poll also suffers from a lack of definitions.

It would be nice if they had actually asked Palestinians if they would support a two state solution based on 1967 borders.

I think this goes back to the reconciliation issue that Palestinians tend to favor at a little over 60% or even higher given some sort of mutual economic relationship. Overall, yes, we do see the hardline largely youth movement that is very militant and wants to drive Israel into the sea, but the vast majority of Palestinians seem to largely just want to be treated as humans and enjoy basic rights and freedoms that they have been increasingly denied since the late 30's to late 40's.

It's one of the things that especially makes Israeli opinion polls tough to read. Military fervor can swing widely in Israel depending on the current domestic discourse of the day. It can make it difficult to really peg long run trending opinions down.

[hologram]

A two state solution will never work if the Palestinian state is ruled by Islam extremist. Egypt and Jordan should stabilize Gaza and West bank and build a real government.

[bryant.coleman]

A two state solution will never work if the Palestinian state is ruled by Islam extremist. Egypt and Jordan should stabilize Gaza and West bank and build a real government.

There is already a two state solution. The British mandate of Jordan was divided in to two. The Eastern Bank of the Jordan river became the Hashemite Kingdom, ruled by the Arabs and most of the Western bank became Israel, ruled by the Jews.

[DodoB]

I hope Israel kicks Hamas and Jihad out this time and finish the job.

[hologram]

I hope Israel kicks Hamas and Jihad out this time and finish the job.

the job will never be finish, Israel should bunkerise themselves (advanced Iron beam, wall...) and live peacefully, but this will take few years and sadly they need this type of intervention now.

[Ron~Popeil]

A two state solution will never work if the Palestinian state is ruled by Islam extremist. Egypt and Jordan should stabilize Gaza and West bank and build a real government.

That is a big part of the issue. You have committed extremists with a history of violence as the potential government. When they don't like the way negotiations go they blow up buses filled with civilians and start launching rockets into population centers. I think the Palestinians would be better off as citizens of Israel with full political rights. There are a lot of Arabs all ready living rather peacefully in places like Tel Aviv.

[hologram]

Israel is a competitive country, if Arab vote for socialism there will be a civil war...

[Chef Ramsay]

'Israel drops cancer-inducing bombs on Gazans'

A Norwegian doctor in the besieged Gaza Strip has strongly criticized Israel for using cancer-inducing bombs against Palestinian civilians.

Dr. Erik Fosse told Press TV that the majority of patients hospitalized in Gaza are civilians injured in attacks on their homes and about thirty percent of them are children.

Dense Inert Metal Explosive, known as DIME, is an explosive device developed to minimize collateral damage in warfare.

Experts say it has a relatively small but effective blast radius and is believed to have strong biological effects on those who are hit by the bomb’s micro-shrapnel.

Fosse, a department head at a university hospital in Oslo, also says some Palestinian in the besieged enclave have been wounded by a new type of weapon that even doctors with previous experience in war zones do not recognize.

Israel also used depleted-uranium and white phosphorus shells in the besieged region during their previous assaults.

Video and more...http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/13/371162/israel-drops-cancerinducing-bombs-on-gaza/

[Starscream]

'Israel drops cancer-inducing bombs on Gazans'

A Norwegian doctor in the besieged Gaza Strip has strongly criticized Israel for using cancer-inducing bombs against Palestinian civilians.

Dr. Erik Fosse told Press TV that the majority of patients hospitalized in Gaza are civilians injured in attacks on their homes and about thirty percent of them are children.

Dense Inert Metal Explosive, known as DIME, is an explosive device developed to minimize collateral damage in warfare.

Experts say it has a relatively small but effective blast radius and is believed to have strong biological effects on those who are hit by the bomb’s micro-shrapnel.

Fosse, a department head at a university hospital in Oslo, also says some Palestinian in the besieged enclave have been wounded by a new type of weapon that even doctors with previous experience in war zones do not recognize.

Israel also used depleted-uranium and white phosphorus shells in the besieged region during their previous assaults.

Video and more...http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/13/371162/israel-drops-cancerinducing-bombs-on-gaza/

lol.

Iranian news as a source? Get real.

[u9y42]

A two state solution will never work if the Palestinian state is ruled by Islam extremist. Egypt and Jordan should stabilize Gaza and West bank and build a real government.

That is a big part of the issue. You have committed extremists with a history of violence as the potential government. When they don't like the way negotiations go they blow up buses filled with civilians and start launching rockets into population centers. I think the Palestinians would be better off as citizens of Israel with full political rights. There are a lot of Arabs all ready living rather peacefully in places like Tel Aviv.

I don't think Israel is interested in the solutions you're proposing, be it a one or two state solution. A one state solution would pose a "demographic problem", in that there would be too many Arabs, threatening the Jewishness of the state... A two state solution is also not the solution Israel wants; instead, their tactic has always been to stall negotiations, isolate the occupied territories, and then expand settlements in the West Bank to cover important areas (access to water, farmland, etc), either driving out the Palestinian population or effectively cutting them off from the outside world, creating areas comparable to Bantustans but without the need for the indigenous population, as was the case in South Africa (they largely rely on Chinese labor last I checked).

As for the Arab population already living in Israel, let's not forget that they are still treated as second class citizens, subject to a lot of discrimination, ranging from how they are portrayed in the public discourse, to an imbalance in the distribution of resources that leaves many Arab communities impoverished, and with limited access to education and healthcare.

'Israel drops cancer-inducing bombs on Gazans'

A Norwegian doctor in the besieged Gaza Strip has strongly criticized Israel for using cancer-inducing bombs against Palestinian civilians.

Dr. Erik Fosse told Press TV that the majority of patients hospitalized in Gaza are civilians injured in attacks on their homes and about thirty percent of them are children.

Dense Inert Metal Explosive, known as DIME, is an explosive device developed to minimize collateral damage in warfare.

Experts say it has a relatively small but effective blast radius and is believed to have strong biological effects on those who are hit by the bomb’s micro-shrapnel.

Fosse, a department head at a university hospital in Oslo, also says some Palestinian in the besieged enclave have been wounded by a new type of weapon that even doctors with previous experience in war zones do not recognize.

Israel also used depleted-uranium and white phosphorus shells in the besieged region during their previous assaults.

Video and more...http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/07/13/371162/israel-drops-cancerinducing-bombs-on-gaza/

lol.

Iranian news as a source? Get real.

Attacking the source doesn't disprove the accusations. Israel initially denied, but eventually had to admit to using white phosphorous rounds in Gaza in the 2008/2009 war, on densely populated areas, even ending up hitting a UN compound with them. In relation to depleted uranium and DIME rounds, it is widely believed that Israel used these types of weapons since at least 2006, and the cancer inducing effects of these types of ammunition have been studied for over a decade; Iraqi civilians, for example, are still suffering from these effects with the depleted uranium rounds used by the US.

[Starscream]

As for the Arab population already living in Israel, let's not forget that they are still treated as second class citizens, subject to a lot of discrimination, ranging from how they are portrayed in the public discourse, to an imbalance in the distribution of resources that leaves many Arab communities impoverished, and with limited access to education and healthcare.

That's an outright lie.
The resource distribution they receive is equal to all other cities out there, whether arab or not. The reason their cities are sub par with non arab ones is their own doing.
Their majors and local representatives allocate the funds elsewhere (corruption and whatnot) and more so, a lot of arabs do not actually pay tax so whatever funds they suppose to get back from their tax they do not receive.

And as far as their public appearance, it's their own doing.
You can barely see any Israeli-arabs supporting the co-existence with Israeli-Jews whereas the ones that wish to spread hate, just hope on a bus and go from one arab city to another and spread the hate there without interference from local folks.
Actually, that was the case until for the first time, a few weeks ago, they were stopped at Akko by local merchants who did not want the riots to cause  Jewish tourists not to come visit.
Hopefully more Arab-Israelis will stand up for the country they live in.

Also, their political representative do nothing for them at the Knesset. All they meddle with is the palestinians and not the people they should represent. Sad.

Attacking the source doesn't disprove the accusations. Israel initially denied, but eventually had to admit to using white phosphorous rounds in Gaza in the 2008/2009 war, on densely populated areas, even ending up hitting a UN compound with them. In relation to depleted uranium and DIME rounds, it is widely believed that Israel used these types of weapons since at least 2006, and the cancer inducing effects of these types of ammunition have been studied for over a decade; Iraqi civilians, for example, are still suffering from these effects with the depleted uranium rounds used by the US.

Israel admitted using it according to the international law. The UN concurred this as well.
And it wasb't dropped or used "on" densely populated areas (that implies that that's was its main intent).
It was used to mask soldiers in order to evacuate them.