Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[Rigon]

Israel engaged in declarations of war against Egypt (Lavon Affair), Syria (bombing of the headwater damn) and Jordan (Operation Shredder) all prior to the official first strikes of the 6 Day War. Calling the 6 Day War a defensive war for Israel would be like calling the US invasion of Iraq a defensive war for the US.

While I am sorry for what happened during the Lavon Affair and the U.S.S. Liberty Incident (my heart goes out to all the sailors killed and wounded), just as my heart goes out to victims of LSD experiments and syphilis experiments, I feel that Israel is doing things in good faith. They do not want to be stuck in an intractable conflict. That is why I am proposing solutions rather than sitting on the sidelines and saying nothing is going to happen and saying that they should just keep fighting. I want both sides to reconcile their differences rather than continue to be in a perpetual state of war.

Because a peace process threatened their much more highly valued territorial holdings in the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem. Has always been a poor comparison because we aren't doing to Mexico what Israel has been doing to Gaza.

You seem to be singling out Israel for criticism. Israel had the Lavon Affair and the U.S.S. Liberty incident. Well, the U.S. had the syphilis experiments and the LSD experiments. Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany had much worse. Japan and China both have skeletons in the closet. Etc. Etc.

But what would you do if MS-13 starting firing rockets at your hometown from Mexico? What would you want the U.S. Government to do? Would it last ten years+ like it does in Israel with calls for restraint? Or would it be different?

[sana8410]

That's exactly what IS going to happen though with the peace process. Still a horrible and completely irrelevant comparison. This suggests that the situation in Gaza is a rather two dimensional one surrounding rocket fire. It isn't and never has been.

[Rigon]

Here's my peace process plan:

Point 1: Israel withdraws from the West Bank. In exchange, Israel gets 2 Los Angeles Class submarines, 10 F-22s, and 20 F-35s. Afterwards, it annexes all of East Jersualem and gives Arabs living their equal rights as Israeli citiizens. It then annexes the Golan Heights and gives everyone there equal rights as Israeli citizens.

Point 2: Mahmoud Abbas cuts ties with Hamas in exchange for an Israeli guarantee to never expand territory, even after winning any future defensive wars.

Point 3: Israel agrees to never expand territory as long as the Golan Heights, pre-1967 Israel, and a united Jerusalem (East and West) are recognized as Israeli and Ramallah becomes the Palestinian capitol.

Point 4: Israel makes peace with the Palestinians and with all of its neighbors and they work together financially and politically.

That is my 4 point plan.

[sana8410]

Here's my peace process plan:

Point 1: Israel withdraws from the West Bank. In exchange, Israel gets 2 Los Angeles Class submarines, 10 F-22s, and 20 F-35s. Afterwards, it annexes all of East Jersualem and gives Arabs living their equal rights as Israeli citiizens. It then annexes the Golan Heights and gives everyone there equal rights as Israeli citizens.

Point 2: Mahmoud Abbas cuts ties with Hamas in exchange for an Israeli guarantee to never expand territory, even after winning any future defensive wars.

Point 3: Israel agrees to never expand territory as long as the Golan Heights, pre-1967 Israel, and a united Jerusalem (East and West) are recognized as Israeli and Ramallah becomes the Palestinian capitol.

Point 4: Israel makes peace with the Palestinians and with all of its neighbors and they work together financially and politically.

That is my 4 point plan.

Israel would never agree to this, and even if Netanyahu had a stroke and said ok his government would collapse the minute he did so. His current governing coalition depends on continued occupation of the West Bank and continued settlement expansion. To give that up would be to resign as PM.

[Alphi]

But what would you do if MS-13 starting firing rockets at your hometown from Mexico? What would you want the U.S. Government to do? Would it last ten years+ like it does in Israel with calls for restraint? Or would it be different?

every colonial power has had to deal with this issue at one time or another.
when the americans stole land from the native americans they weren't too happy about it either..

the native americans fought bitterly but they were hopelessly out gunned.

many died from battle yet many more died from the horrible diseases that the Europeans brought.

in the end treaties were signed and naive peoples were moved onto reservations.

now all that happened hundreds of years ago in a different era.
none of that would be acceptable nowdays and nor should we accept that kind of colonialism and brutal oppression of the native inhabitants of palestine/isreal.

as for what americans would do if they were attacked with rockets.... well we have seen what they did when attacked with bombs and aeroplanes.

the point is though that the more heavy handed and unjust the response the less effective the outcome is likely to be...

just look at Iraq today.. its far more dangerous with far more fundamentalists than before the US invaded.
and at what cost? countless human lives and a massive financial burden for the people of the USA.

regardless of how justified it was to go into Afghanistan and Iraq... ask Americans today if they think it was actually worth it.
after all they went to get bin laden (among other things)... and when they finally found him.. he was in Pakistan

I think looking at the region now, opinion would be very divided on whether the benefits outweigh the cost...

my own opinion is that the cost was enormous and the benefit may have been too little... and as for safety.. im not sure that the world is a safer place now.

this lesson can be applied to the conflict in gaza..
the longer this war goes on.. the more innocent civilians die,  the greater the human and financial cost and the lesser the benefit.

[Rigon]

Here's my peace process plan:

Point 1: Israel withdraws from the West Bank. In exchange, Israel gets 2 Los Angeles Class submarines, 10 F-22s, and 20 F-35s. Afterwards, it annexes all of East Jersualem and gives Arabs living their equal rights as Israeli citiizens. It then annexes the Golan Heights and gives everyone there equal rights as Israeli citizens.

Point 2: Mahmoud Abbas cuts ties with Hamas in exchange for an Israeli guarantee to never expand territory, even after winning any future defensive wars.

Point 3: Israel agrees to never expand territory as long as the Golan Heights, pre-1967 Israel, and a united Jerusalem (East and West) are recognized as Israeli and Ramallah becomes the Palestinian capitol.

Point 4: Israel makes peace with the Palestinians and with all of its neighbors and they work together financially and politically.

That is my 4 point plan.

Israel would never agree to this, and even if Netanyahu had a stroke and said ok his government would collapse the minute he did so. His current governing coalition depends on continued occupation of the West Bank and continued settlement expansion. To give that up would be to resign as PM.

Israel is a small country that is vulnerable on all of its borders. That is why it is doing what it is doing.


I feel that we should never negotiate with Hamas. Negotiating with Hamas is like negotiating with Ayman Al Zawahari. We do not negotiate with Al Qaeda just like we should not negotiate with Hamas. Hamas's control of Gaza makes it harder for Israel to do anything else other than what it is doing.

[sana8410]

Here's my peace process plan:

Point 1: Israel withdraws from the West Bank. In exchange, Israel gets 2 Los Angeles Class submarines, 10 F-22s, and 20 F-35s. Afterwards, it annexes all of East Jersualem and gives Arabs living their equal rights as Israeli citiizens. It then annexes the Golan Heights and gives everyone there equal rights as Israeli citizens.

Point 2: Mahmoud Abbas cuts ties with Hamas in exchange for an Israeli guarantee to never expand territory, even after winning any future defensive wars.

Point 3: Israel agrees to never expand territory as long as the Golan Heights, pre-1967 Israel, and a united Jerusalem (East and West) are recognized as Israeli and Ramallah becomes the Palestinian capitol.

Point 4: Israel makes peace with the Palestinians and with all of its neighbors and they work together financially and politically.

That is my 4 point plan.

Israel would never agree to this, and even if Netanyahu had a stroke and said ok his government would collapse the minute he did so. His current governing coalition depends on continued occupation of the West Bank and continued settlement expansion. To give that up would be to resign as PM.

Israel is a small country that is vulnerable on all of its borders. That is why it is doing what it is doing.


I feel that we should never negotiate with Hamas. Negotiating with Hamas is like negotiating with Ayman Al Zawahari. We do not negotiate with Al Qaeda just like we should not negotiate with Hamas. Hamas's control of Gaza makes it harder for Israel to do anything else other than what it is doing.

Neither side would agree to this. Palestinians are unlikely to give up their claim to Eastern Jerusalem, especially when international law supports said claim, and Israel wouldn't recognize 1967 borders even if they received eastern Jerusalem city proper. in exchange.

[hologram]

Neither side would agree to this. Palestinians are unlikely to give up their claim to Eastern Jerusalem, especially when international law supports said claim, and Israel wouldn't recognize 1967 borders even if they received eastern Jerusalem city proper. in exchange.

1967 border is not fair for Israel.

[Alphi]

I feel that we should never negotiate with Hamas. Negotiating with Hamas is like negotiating with Ayman Al Zawahari. We do not negotiate with Al Qaeda just like we should not negotiate with Hamas. Hamas's control of Gaza makes it harder for Israel to do anything else other than what it is doing.

they wouldn't have to negotiate with Hamas if they had negotiated with the Palestinian Authority and before that the PLO.

the situation and the people only get more extreme the more this drags out... the occupation has been going on for more than 50 years how much longer do you want the Palestinians to sit quietly and wait?...

that's just reality of it.. Hamas gained power because negotiations with the PLO failed.

I agree no nation would sit idly buy and let themselves be attacked by rockets.
but at the same time no nation would sit idly by and watch their land get stolen and live under oppressive military occupation for 50 years.

[noviapriani]

Israel is a small country that is vulnerable on all of its borders. That is why it is doing what it is doing.

Not really. Israel is pretty militarily dominant. The fear of being wiped out isn't one with a lot of muscle behind it.

[Rigon]

Then both sides really need to change their thinking.

[sana8410]

Then both sides really need to change their thinking.

The United States and its voters need to change their thinking. Pressure works and we simply aren't in a strong enough position domestically to be able to put pressure on Israeli administrations to adhere to a peace deal.

[Rigon]

Then both sides really need to change their thinking.

The United States and its voters need to change their thinking. Pressure works and we simply aren't in a strong enough position domestically to be able to put pressure on Israeli administrations to adhere to a peace deal.

Then both sides really need to change their thinking. We should also pressure Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah to break ties with Hamas .

[noviapriani]

Then both sides really need to change their thinking.

The United States and its voters need to change their thinking. Pressure works and we simply aren't in a strong enough position domestically to be able to put pressure on Israeli administrations to adhere to a peace deal.

Then both sides really need to change their thinking. We should also pressure Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah to break ties with Hamas .

That wouldn't accomplish anything. Israel used to cite their unity as a prerequisite for a peace deal, claiming that as long as Palestinians were divided they could never negotiate. Netanyahu never really wanted them to unify though, a united Palestine is a more diplomatically and politically threatening Palestine because then they can present a stronger face to the international community. The fact that a major military offensive against Hamas is taking place so soon after the unity government was announced is not a coincidence.

[hologram]

The United States and its voters need to change their thinking. Pressure works and we simply aren't in a strong enough position domestically to be able to put pressure on Israeli administrations to adhere to a peace deal.

Only a western country can be stupid enough to put pressure on a good ally...

[Rigon]

We should try, at least. You should at least try before you say it didn't work.

[noviapriani]

We should try, at least. You should at least try before you say it didn't work.

I'm saying it wouldn't change anything if Abbas broke ties with Hamas. Netanyahu still wouldn't engage in meaningful peace talks with Abbas (we already saw that play out for years). In fact, that's exactly why Hamas and Abbas ended up moving forward with a unity deal in the first place. The unity government isn't preventing peace or reconciliation.

[Tusk]

Here's my peace process plan:

Point 1: Israel withdraws from the West Bank. In exchange, Israel gets 2 Los Angeles Class submarines, 10 F-22s, and 20 F-35s. Afterwards, it annexes all of East Jersualem and gives Arabs living their equal rights as Israeli citiizens. It then annexes the Golan Heights and gives everyone there equal rights as Israeli citizens.

Point 2: Mahmoud Abbas cuts ties with Hamas in exchange for an Israeli guarantee to never expand territory, even after winning any future defensive wars.

Point 3: Israel agrees to never expand territory as long as the Golan Heights, pre-1967 Israel, and a united Jerusalem (East and West) are recognized as Israeli and Ramallah becomes the Palestinian capitol.

Point 4: Israel makes peace with the Palestinians and with all of its neighbors and they work together financially and politically.

That is my 4 point plan.

Israel would never agree to this, and even if Netanyahu had a stroke and said ok his government would collapse the minute he did so. His current governing coalition depends on continued occupation of the West Bank and continued settlement expansion. To give that up would be to resign as PM.

Israel is a small country that is vulnerable on all of its borders. That is why it is doing what it is doing.


I feel that we should never negotiate with Hamas. Negotiating with Hamas is like negotiating with Ayman Al Zawahari. We do not negotiate with Al Qaeda just like we should not negotiate with Hamas. Hamas's control of Gaza makes it harder for Israel to do anything else other than what it is doing.

And Palestine is even smaller, your statement that Israel should never negotiate with Hamas then why should the Palestinians negotiate with Israel You cannot have preconditions to negotiations. Israel thinks they entitled to some special status why should they be. Yasser Arafat was a dove compared to Hamas but Israel continually found excuses to dismiss him now look what they got. The complications Israel faces are self-inflicted and deliberate, Israel needs to get real and stop thinking the world owes it any special favours, engage with Hamas and all the Palestinians without any preconditions.

  

[hologram]

And Palestine is even smaller, your statement that Israel should never negotiate with Hamas then why should the Palestinians negotiate with Israel You cannot have preconditions to negotiations. Israel thinks they entitled to some special status why should they be. Yasser Arafat was a dove compared to Hamas but Israel continually found excuses to dismiss him now look what they got. The complications Israel faces are self-inflicted and deliberate, Israel needs to get real and stop thinking the world owes it any special favours, engage with Hamas and all the Palestinians without any preconditions.

Hamas only know violence, Israel is already negotiating with them in their language.

[Tusk]

Yes and Israel only knows occupation and violence