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Author Topic: Israel: Operation Protective Edge  (Read 14697 times)
hologram
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July 21, 2014, 06:00:21 PM
 #161

Hamas should stop invading Israel...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ofW7fGpF30

Tusk
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July 21, 2014, 06:47:17 PM
Last edit: July 21, 2014, 08:28:54 PM by Tusk
 #162

Again what does Israel expect, they occupy Palestine build illegal settlements and the Palestinians must just accept their occupation without retaliation Huh
Israel must stop drinking its own cool aid The Palestinians have the right to resist their occupation and the continued illegal settlements on their land. Do you think US or any other country would accept this behaviour on their soil Huh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRO1YFreNA


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July 22, 2014, 01:46:59 AM
 #163

Israel using Flechette shells against civilian populations

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israel-using-flechette-shells-in-gaza

It is clear that Israel is the true aggressor here. They murder thousands of Palestinian civilians and then expect not to be hated? What a joke!
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July 22, 2014, 01:51:26 AM
 #164

Again what does Israel expect, they occupy Palestine build illegal settlements and the Palestinians must just accept their occupation without retaliation Huh
Israel must stop drinking its own cool aid The Palestinians have the right to resist their occupation and the continued illegal settlements on their land. Do you think US or any other country would accept this behaviour on their soil Huh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRO1YFreNA


It stopped being their "soil" (never was) the moment they declared war and lost.

And if they choose to "resist", violently, than they need to accept that they're going to die.

Their instigation and support of violence is staggering.

And also, there's no occupation, gaza is an autonomy, with its own government and a border to Egypt, granted Israel blocks all of their borders on its side, but with a damn good reason - as history has shown, they use the good will to smuggle weapons for suicide bombers and rockets.
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July 22, 2014, 02:07:41 AM
 #165

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=iXRO1YFreNA


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July 22, 2014, 02:15:46 AM
 #166


And Palestine is even smaller, your statement that Israel should never negotiate with Hamas then why should the Palestinians negotiate with Israel Huh You cannot have preconditions to negotiations. Israel thinks they entitled to some special status why should they be. Yasser Arafat was a dove compared to Hamas but Israel continually found excuses to dismiss him now look what they got. The complications Israel faces are self-inflicted and deliberate, Israel needs to get real and stop thinking the world owes it any special favours, engage with Hamas and all the Palestinians without any preconditions.
  

This fact is undeniable.

When Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Extremist Zionist (Yigal Amir) the best hope for peace was lost. nobody knows who killed Arafat if anyone did at all, but together they were Isreals/Palestines best chance for peace.

the enemies of peace are inside Isreal as much as they are inside Hamas.
as the conflict continues the good people are killed or flee.. the only ones left are radicalized extremists.

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July 22, 2014, 08:14:09 AM
 #167


As for the Arab population already living in Israel, let's not forget that they are still treated as second class citizens, subject to a lot of discrimination, ranging from how they are portrayed in the public discourse, to an imbalance in the distribution of resources that leaves many Arab communities impoverished, and with limited access to education and healthcare.
That's an outright lie.
The resource distribution they receive is equal to all other cities out there, whether arab or not. The reason their cities are sub par with non arab ones is their own doing.
Their majors and local representatives allocate the funds elsewhere (corruption and whatnot) and more so, a lot of arabs do not actually pay tax so whatever funds they suppose to get back from their tax they do not receive.

And as far as their public appearance, it's their own doing.
You can barely see any Israeli-arabs supporting the co-existence with Israeli-Jews whereas the ones that wish to spread hate, just hope on a bus and go from one arab city to another and spread the hate there without interference from local folks.
Actually, that was the case until for the first time, a few weeks ago, they were stopped at Akko by local merchants who did not want the riots to cause  Jewish tourists not to come visit.
Hopefully more Arab-Israelis will stand up for the country they live in.

Also, their political representative do nothing for them at the Knesset. All they meddle with is the palestinians and not the people they should represent. Sad.

So basically, in your view, if they are discriminated against or effectively have worse living conditions than non-Arabs, it's all their own fault. Do you think your opinion could perhaps be a bit... biased? And you can argue that there is corruption and that accounts for some of the discrepancy, but to say they aren't effectively treated as second class citizens and afforded less resources directly by the central government is ridiculous. But don't take my word for it, go check the Human Rights Watch or the US State Department's country reports on human rights practices on Israel, for example. If you're into lighter reading, I believe Haaretz occasionally reports on this subject as well.

Still, and getting back to what I was saying (in the part you didn't quote), this is irrelevant to the point, as Israel doesn't want a one state solution to begin with, or for that matter a two state solution that would leave a viable Palestinian state.


Attacking the source doesn't disprove the accusations. Israel initially denied, but eventually had to admit to using white phosphorous rounds in Gaza in the 2008/2009 war, on densely populated areas, even ending up hitting a UN compound with them. In relation to depleted uranium and DIME rounds, it is widely believed that Israel used these types of weapons since at least 2006, and the cancer inducing effects of these types of ammunition have been studied for over a decade; Iraqi civilians, for example, are still suffering from these effects with the depleted uranium rounds used by the US.
Israel admitted using it according to the international law. The UN concurred this as well.
And it wasb't dropped or used "on" densely populated areas (that implies that that's was its main intent).
It was used to mask soldiers in order to evacuate them.

You're technically right in that white phosphorous rounds aren't illegal when not being used for their incendiary or toxic capabilities, but its "systematically reckless" use (Goldstone Report) on densely populated areas still had the predictable consequences on the civilian population: killing and wounding scores of civilians, property damage, the UN compound set on fire, destroying tons of humanitarian aid, and at least one hospital similarly being set on fire, forcing its evacuation. Further, in many cases which Human Rights Watch investigated its use, there were no Israeli forces nearby which would have required it be used, and further pointed out that there are far safer alternatives that can replace white phosphorus rounds.

And if you didn't like the article Chef Ramsay presented merely on account of its source, here's another from Haaretz, also commenting on Israel's likely use of DIME weapons in Gaza: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/norwegian-doctor-israel-used-new-type-of-weapon-in-gaza-1.268394.
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July 22, 2014, 09:13:25 AM
 #168

Listen to the voice of reason from a peace activist who is the son of an isreali general and grandson of one of the founders of isreal.


a very frank and candid discussion that restores some of my faith in humanity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SuuCa3CiXY


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July 22, 2014, 11:46:46 AM
 #169

More than 20 members of one family killed in Gaza strike

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/gaza-hospital-shelling-air-strike-israel-idf



Can't really say this is a proportionate response to Hamas' homemade missiles.


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Alphi
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July 22, 2014, 12:22:47 PM
 #170

if people are really interested in continuing the debate I would urge you to listen to this lecture.

it explains the occupation in great detail from the perspective of an Isreali man who's entire family was instrumental in the creation of the state of Isreal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVBlNiD1XdI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtMpwvZ4qlY

if you put your preconceptions to one side for a moment,  you might actually learn something...

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Tusk
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July 22, 2014, 12:38:51 PM
 #171

You have to rethink the term Terrorist, who is doing the terrorising and is killing more civilians while trying to claim legitimacy.

Look at the outrage from around the world https://secure.avaaz.org/en/israel_palestine_this_is_how_it_ends_rb/?bZABTbb&v=42735


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July 22, 2014, 12:55:48 PM
 #172

It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

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July 22, 2014, 01:28:16 PM
 #173

It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.
 I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.

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July 22, 2014, 01:35:30 PM
 #174

It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.
 I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
I agree with you here.

Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians all need to do their part.

Israel should increase its contact with the Arab League in order to find a more just and peaceful solution to the conflict.

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July 22, 2014, 01:38:58 PM
 #175

It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.
 I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
I agree with you here.

Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians all need to do their part.

Israel should increase its contact with the Arab League in order to find a more just and peaceful solution to the conflict.
That's really the only way to get me to shut up.

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July 22, 2014, 01:51:00 PM
 #176

Have Arab league an interest to end this conflict ?  Roll Eyes

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July 22, 2014, 02:08:54 PM
 #177

Can't really say this is a proportionate response to Hamas' homemade missiles.

Proportionate or not, Hamas should have never poked Israel. You never poke a sleeping bear. In case you do so, then later you should not complain that the bear bit you.  Grin

(Ask the Georgians about their 2008 war against Russia. They'll explain. Or ask the Chinese about their adventure in 1969).
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July 22, 2014, 02:10:38 PM
 #178

It has more to do with power groupings and how coalitions have to be formed within Israel and the desire to simply occupy the land regardless of the security challenges that doing so creates. All the proof one needs is Israel's continued refusal to halt settlement expansion despite the fact that the Michell Report clearly indicated it as one of the single largest contributing factors to instability that led to the Second Intifada. (that's also why Bush's Road Map for Peace plan had Israel halting settlement expansion as its first phase of a peace process).

"Security" concerns are an obfuscation tactic that has long been used by Israeli administrations to divert attention away from other relevant issues and as an excuse to act militarily during times in which they are losing ground diplomatically.
I don't understand what you mean. As far as israel is concerned, the status quo is a level of security that they know and they can tolerate. while any deviation from he status quo is a level of security that is unknown, and potentially much worse (especially given the state of affairs in the larger middle east). any actions taken towards a two state solution are not guarantees of a lasting peace (as far as israel is concerned), they are just movements away from the status quo. could the most well-meaning palestinian government guarantee peace? is it worth it for israel to find out?

obviously a guaranteed peace would be wonderful. but you can't really guarantee that kind of thing in this situation.

in the end the palestinians will get what they want, because this is ridiculously unsustainable. but it won't be for a while and a lot of people will die first. just the way it is.

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July 22, 2014, 02:13:36 PM
 #179

It has more to do with power groupings and how coalitions have to be formed within Israel and the desire to simply occupy the land regardless of the security challenges that doing so creates. All the proof one needs is Israel's continued refusal to halt settlement expansion despite the fact that the Michell Report clearly indicated it as one of the single largest contributing factors to instability that led to the Second Intifada. (that's also why Bush's Road Map for Peace plan had Israel halting settlement expansion as its first phase of a peace process).

"Security" concerns are an obfuscation tactic that has long been used by Israeli administrations to divert attention away from other relevant issues and as an excuse to act militarily during times in which they are losing ground diplomatically.
I don't understand what you mean. As far as israel is concerned, the status quo is a level of security that they know and they can tolerate. while any deviation from he status quo is a level of security that is unknown, and potentially much worse (especially given the state of affairs in the larger middle east). any actions taken towards a two state solution are not guarantees of a lasting peace (as far as israel is concerned), they are just movements away from the status quo. could the most well-meaning palestinian government guarantee peace? is it worth it for israel to find out?

obviously a guaranteed peace would be wonderful. but you can't really guarantee that kind of thing in this situation.

in the end the palestinians will get what they want, because this is ridiculously unsustainable. but it won't be for a while and a lot of people will die first. just the way it is.
A couple of things:

1.) According to Israel they can't tolerate it, which is fine, I wouldn't tolerate rocket attacks on my citizens either.

2.) Your argument I think rests on the premise that the situation is stable and unlikely to change for the worse (in terms of security). I would strongly disagree with that as Salafi Jihadi groups grow in strength in the area (particularly in the Sinai and Gaza).

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July 22, 2014, 02:17:22 PM
Last edit: July 22, 2014, 02:38:29 PM by Alphi
 #180

It looks like Egypt may broker a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.
It's unlikely to last long. Not unless Israel releases the hundreds of people it arbitrarily detained in the West Bank roundup it engaged in when looking for the missing students, and unless it eases the blockade restrictions of Gaza considerably.
 I suppose I should also say unless Egypt eases up a bit on material transfers into Gaza as well. Egypt played its part in the decay of the 2012 ceasefire too.
I agree with you here.

Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians all need to do their part.

Israel should increase its contact with the Arab League in order to find a more just and peaceful solution to the conflict.
That's really the only way to get me to shut up.

Not Just Israel, Egypt, and the Palestinians
everyone has to do their part.

even if it is speaking out... educating yourself on whats really going on.. passive resistance... or even refraining from rhetoric.

public opinion has for a very long time been against the indiscriminate violent actions of Hamas.
public opinion is now turning against the oppressive actions of the Israeli government.

just like as south Africa lashed out against its minorities during the dying days of the apartheid regime.
the zionist and the various militant islamic regimes are also weakening significantly.

hamas will not be able to continue collecting rockets and violently resisting for another 7 years and israel will not be able pay for their extremely expensive high tech weapons of war for the next 7 years.

they are both lashing out in a last ditch attempt to swey world opinion so they can get much needed military and financial support.
but after nearly 1 and half decades of conflict in the middle east the various powers backing both sides  of the Isreal/Palestine conflict are extremely war fatigued and will not be willing nor able to keep funding more military campaigns.

Having taken the time to educate myself on this issue a little deeper. I am now convinced that its only a matter of time before a revolution, like that of south africa, will take over.
the settlers wont like it , hamas wont like it... but it will lead to a better situation for everyone.

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