Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[noviapriani]

Also, in addition to their being differences in the Middle Eastern ethnic groups, there are even differences within countries. For example, Iraq has Arabs and Kurds. Iran has Armenians, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, etc. Israel has Ashkenazi European Jews, Sephardic and Mizrahi Middle Eastern Jews, and Ethiopian Jews. About half of Israel's Jews are non-European and are Middle Eastern and Ethiopian.

Apparently Hamas rockets are targeted only at Jews and no Arabs in Israel will be hurt.

So say Hamas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=rBkazXb0wCg


Followed by an Arab man being killed in Israel by a Hamas rocket

[umair127]

Also, in addition to their being differences in the Middle Eastern ethnic groups, there are even differences within countries. For example, Iraq has Arabs and Kurds. Iran has Armenians, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, etc. Israel has Ashkenazi European Jews, Sephardic and Mizrahi Middle Eastern Jews, and Ethiopian Jews. About half of Israel's Jews are non-European and are Middle Eastern and Ethiopian.

Apparently Hamas rockets are targeted only at Jews and no Arabs in Israel will be hurt.

So say Hamas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=rBkazXb0wCg


Followed by an Arab man being killed in Israel by a Hamas rocket

I don't see the need to negotiate with Hamas. I feel that Israel can negotiate with Fatah, but not with Hamas.

[noviapriani]

Also, in addition to their being differences in the Middle Eastern ethnic groups, there are even differences within countries. For example, Iraq has Arabs and Kurds. Iran has Armenians, Arabs, Kurds, Persians, etc. Israel has Ashkenazi European Jews, Sephardic and Mizrahi Middle Eastern Jews, and Ethiopian Jews. About half of Israel's Jews are non-European and are Middle Eastern and Ethiopian.

Apparently Hamas rockets are targeted only at Jews and no Arabs in Israel will be hurt.

So say Hamas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=rBkazXb0wCg


Followed by an Arab man being killed in Israel by a Hamas rocket

I don't see the need to negotiate with Hamas. I feel that Israel can negotiate with Fatah, but not with Hamas.

Negotiating with Hamas is a complete non-starter. They're founded on the principle of destroying Israel and its people.

The most you can do is negotiate a ceasefire and that's usually because Hamas need one to rearm and then go again 18 months later.

Even Fatah, I'm not sure. There are individuals, and I believe Abbas is one that can be negotiated with.

You see, there's a belief in 'palestinian' society that you cannot defeat Israel in one go (they've tried that approach 3 times and failed) so you try and take them "piece by piece"

This is why many Israelis believe that if they did make yet more concessions and gave land in the West Bank, that this wouldn't be the end of the conflict, but the beginning of the next.

Israel would be very vulnerable with every corner within rocket range.

Personally speaking, given how the Arab world operates and the fundamentalism in it, I don't see the Arabs being satiated with the West Bank.

Even if the Arabs somehow accept it, a new radical leader comes along in 20 years with the "reclaim their land" bullshit and the whole thing starts again.

[hologram]

Thanks for this post.

[3x2]

Israel does everything in their power to only strike militant targets, while Hamas does everything in their power to strike civilian targets. Hamas is committing a double war crime by hiding behind civilians and attacking civilians.

I would say Israel is committing double war crime by first killing innocent people in Palestine and then bcoz of that letting Hamas kill their own people. You must be a fucktard to Defend Israel in this scenario. Either you are Israeli or some ignorant without any ethics.

[Rigon]

Those Middle-Easterners need to watch 'Schindler's List' ….They love a bit of Nazism, the 'palestinians'

[noviapriani]

Thanks for this post.

your welcome!

[noviapriani]

Those Middle-Easterners need to watch 'Schindler's List' ….They love a bit of Nazism, the 'palestinians'

The Grand Mufti was a firm admirer of Hitler. That much is true.

But you can't blame all Palestinians for the Grand Mufti. Just like you can't blame all Germans for Hitler.

I only blame Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't blame the Palestinian people or the Lebanese people.

Right now, I think Israel is in the right for going after Hamas. Just like they went after Hezbollah in 2006 and the last time they went after Hamas in 2009.

[zolace]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

I don't think these wars are being fought for any historical claims for land,rather Israel is going to war because Hamas refuses to give up shooting rockets into their country. Hamas fights because Israel is continuing to build settlements in what was once Arab land. The arbitrary manner in which the British divided the country and declared a new country right in their midst doesn't help either.

Most importantly though is the evolution of our global society into one that wishes to see the establishment of norms and the realization of a better world. Part of that are things like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and another part is putting an end to the acquisition of land through military action, and the respect for basic human rights for everyone in the world. It is these things that Israel stands in violation of, the ideals of our future society. We don't want to see such theft specifically because we have seen it in the past and it is horrible. These laws and norms started coming into existence after WWI and especially after WWII.

Both of you bring up interesting points.

Ancient Jews, Canaanites, and Phoenicians had their own culture and language until they were Arabized by the Arab Muslims who migrated North and spread their religion. All of those groups can be considered Middle Eastern but I do not consider all Middle Easterners Arabs. There are Arabs, Kurds, Phoenicians, Palestinians, Jews, Turks, Berbers, and other groups. If you are Middle Eastern, then you are obviously Middle Eastern, but you are not necessarily an Arab. Pan-Arab nationalism did not really take hold until Islam conquered much of North Africa and Southwest Asia. Then a pan-Arab identity took hold of the region.

This point is close, but I think it rather misses the concept of what an Arab is. Ethnic identity is based a lot on language. Kurds remained a different ethnic group because they didn't Arabize. Arab is a very general ethnic term encompassing a lot of different sub-ethnicities and historical groups like Egyptians, Nubians, the mixed Sudanese tribes, even Bedouins and some Berbers and yes the descendants of the Phoneticians, and Philistines (aka Palestinians); there are a couple of border ethnicties that are one might say dual ethnicities like formerly what were considered to be Jewish Arabs, some Kurds (like Saladin), Somalis, etc. Then there are completely different ethnicities like the Turkish groupings.

Palestinians are Arabs, but they are also Arab Palestinians. They have that strong sub-ethnicity due to common history.

[umair127]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

[Alphi]

This point is close, but I think it rather misses the concept of what an Arab is. Ethnic identity is based a lot on language. Kurds remained a different ethnic group because they didn't Arabize. Arab is a very general ethnic term encompassing a lot of different sub-ethnicities and historical groups like Egyptians, Nubians, the mixed Sudanese tribes, even Bedouins and some Berbers and yes the descendants of the Phoneticians, and Philistines (aka Palestinians); there are a couple of border ethnicties that are one might say dual ethnicities like formerly what were considered to be Jewish Arabs, some Kurds (like Saladin), Somalis, etc. Then there are completely different ethnicities like the Turkish groupings.

Palestinians are Arabs, but they are also Arab Palestinians. They have that strong sub-ethnicity due to common history.

in this context the term Arab is used by Isrealis as part of their propaganda machine to delegitimize their claim on the land of Palestine.

Arabic is just a language it does not represent any ethnic group any more than English as a language represents any particular ethnic group.

Calling Palestinians Arabs is like Calling Americans, Australians, NewZealanders and Canadians... English.
they are not English they only speak English.

the term Palestinian also does not exactly represent any ethnic group but it is more accurate to call them Palestinians than Arabs because they are the people who were born from (or decendants) of the people who lived in the territory called Palestine..

they are not foreign invaders they are the natives who were force off their land by the foreign invaders from Europe who called themselves Isrealis.

maybe 2000 years ago when the Palestinians were known as Philistines they were foreigners but not today... they have been living on the land continuously and of course mixing with every foreign invader for more than 2000 years. Unlike the vast majority of Isrealis who have only been living on the land since the earlier part of the 1900s and many of whom were not even born on that land and claim to have not mixed their blood with anyone (even though there are Jews of every color on earth)

these are the problems with the Zionist movement and a similarities it shares with the Aryan (AKA white supremacist) movement.

they are forbidden from inter marrying with anyone who is not of their race .. i.e. Jewish.
non jews are forbidden from purchasing land and easily emigrating to Isreal.
it is even frowned upon for Jewish children to have non Jewish friends (especially arabic speaking ones)
you are forbidden from converting to Judaism.  you cannot become a jew even if you somehow manage to marry one.
your children can only be jewish if their mother is a jew...
if you are a jew but do not understand the culture or language you get a free passport on arrival.
when you become of age you must join the Isreali army and you must pledge your allegiance to the Zionist cause.
if you are a non jew, an orthodox jew or a black jew who protests peacefully against the policies of the state of Isreal you will be beaten and perhaps even jailed without charge.
if you are a Palestinian who protested against the policies of isreal you may even have your business shutdown or your house bulldozed.
if you commit any act of violence against isrealis that is considered life threatening.. consider yourself dead.

im not making this stuff up this is actually what happens in Isreal under the right wing Zionist regime.

I must stress, most of this is not Jewish culture I am talking about.. these are the policies and practices of Isreal.
and yes there are other countries in the middle east who share some of these practices for their own majority ethnic groups.

[bryant.coleman]

Those Middle-Easterners need to watch 'Schindler's List' ….They love a bit of Nazism, the 'palestinians'

SS Waffen had plenty of volunteers from the Middle East.

70,000 volunteers from Azerbaijan, 2,000 from the North Caucasus, and many more from the Arab world. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem even cancelled a plan by the Nazis to exchange 5,000 Jewish children for German POWs, saying that "they all deserved to die". Also, he himself led the Hanjar troops in Bosnia, which killed hundreds of Jews.

[zolace]

Those Middle-Easterners need to watch 'Schindler's List' ….They love a bit of Nazism, the 'palestinians'

The Grand Mufti was a firm admirer of Hitler. That much is true.

But you can't blame all Palestinians for the Grand Mufti. Just like you can't blame all Germans for Hitler.

I only blame Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't blame the Palestinian people or the Lebanese people.

Right now, I think Israel is in the right for going after Hamas. Just like they went after Hezbollah in 2006 and the last time they went after Hamas in 2009.

The 'palestinians' voted for an internationally proscribed terrorist group to represent them. This group was founded on the principle of destroying Israel and its population.

Its central platform that it runs on, is the destruction of Israel.

So when you go to the ballot box and choose that group, then you know that you're voting for war.

And to be fair to Hamas, they have certainly delivered on their election promises - so kudos there.

[noviapriani]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

Nonsense.The Hashemites have a very long history and trace their roots back to the early stages of Islam.'palestinians' trace their roots back to the 1960's when an Egyptian became their leader.

[Alphi]

Those Middle-Easterners need to watch 'Schindler's List' ….They love a bit of Nazism, the 'palestinians'

The Grand Mufti was a firm admirer of Hitler. That much is true.

But you can't blame all Palestinians for the Grand Mufti. Just like you can't blame all Germans for Hitler.

I only blame Hamas and Hezbollah. I don't blame the Palestinian people or the Lebanese people.

Right now, I think Israel is in the right for going after Hamas. Just like they went after Hezbollah in 2006 and the last time they went after Hamas in 2009.

The 'palestinians' voted for an internationally proscribed terrorist group to represent them. This group was founded on the principle of destroying Israel and its population.

Its central platform that it runs on, is the destruction of Israel.

So when you go to the ballot box and choose that group, then you know that you're voting for war.

And to be fair to Hamas, they have certainly delivered on their election promises - so kudos there.

you forget that Isreal started off as a Jewish terrorist group too.

and they didn't just call for Palestine to be wiped of the map.. they actually went and did it.

the process of creating Israel necessitated the systematic destruction of Palestine because its the same land.

kind of like how the united states destroyed many native american nations in their conquest of the land that is the USA today...

and FYI the PLO were considered terrorists too...
now they run the west bank and are paid by Isreal.


as for the claims that some people make about Hamas and IRAN wanting to kill all Jews.. try telling that to the many Jewish peace activists that actually visit gaza and the west bank without getting killed... (it doesn't make the news because they don't get killed)
and try telling that to this Jewish guy in Iran. He seems quite happy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm_kIPGV7b4

[Rigon]

Right now, I think Israel is in the right for going after Hamas. Just like they went after Hezbollah in 2006 and the last time they went after Hamas in 2009.

Agreed, that much is obvious. Sadly many can't see it.

The news wires only start reporting when Israel responds to rocket fire. They didn't bother reporting for the 3 weeks prior to the flare-up when Israel kept warning Hamas to stop firing rockets to no avail.

[umair127]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

Nonsense.The Hashemites have a very long history and trace their roots back to the early stages of Islam.'palestinians' trace their roots back to the 1960's when an Egyptian became their leader.

Someone is obviously unaware that the first Palestinian Congress was held long before Israel was even a state and aligned culturally more more closely with Syria and Lebanon than Egypt.

[noviapriani]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

Nonsense.The Hashemites have a very long history and trace their roots back to the early stages of Islam.'palestinians' trace their roots back to the 1960's when an Egyptian became their leader.

Someone is obviously unaware that the first Palestinian Congress was held long before Israel was even a state and aligned culturally more more closely with Syria and Lebanon than Egypt.

Wasn't Palestine part of Greater Syria? In fact, I know that is how it was recently.

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

[Starscream]

Wasn't Palestine part of Greater Syria? In fact, I know that is how it was recently.

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

It was and you are correct, though it was at 135 AD.

[noviapriani]

Wasn't Palestine part of Greater Syria? In fact, I know that is how it was recently.

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

It was and you are correct, though it was at 135 AD.

i was never good on remembering the the right year.