Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[Alphi]

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

they didn't kick the Jews out they just executed their leaders and smashed their political power.
it was called Syria, Palestina or Judea named after the ethnic groups that lived there.
Im guessing the name changed over time to reflect which group was more dominant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province#mediaviewer/File:Augusto_30aC_-_6dC_55%25CS_jpg.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea_(Roman_province)


heres an interesting map of the Isreal Kindgom...
it kinda gives you an idea of what the modern Isrealis were aiming for when they forced the Palestinians into Gaza and systematically took over the West bank

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)

it even has Palestinians in the Gaza region all those 3 thousand years ago..

looks like Jordan is next once they finish absorbing the west bank.

[umair127]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

Nonsense.The Hashemites have a very long history and trace their roots back to the early stages of Islam.'palestinians' trace their roots back to the 1960's when an Egyptian became their leader.

Someone is obviously unaware that the first Palestinian Congress was held long before Israel was even a state and aligned culturally more more closely with Syria and Lebanon than Egypt.

Wasn't Palestine part of Greater Syria? In fact, I know that is how it was recently.

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

The Palestinian Congress had a much closer cultural heritage with Syria and Lebanon and one of the original ideas of the congress was to form a single country out of those three regions yes. They are all culturally Levantine Arabs, and the Syria region has a history of being connected to Egypt as well, particularly through the rule of Muhammad Ali of Egypt.

[Starscream]

it even has Palestinians in the Gaza region all those 3 thousand years ago..

looks like Jordan is next once they finish absorbing the west bank.

Philistines != palestinians

Such ignorance, jeez.

[noviapriani]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

Nonsense.The Hashemites have a very long history and trace their roots back to the early stages of Islam.'palestinians' trace their roots back to the 1960's when an Egyptian became their leader.

Someone is obviously unaware that the first Palestinian Congress was held long before Israel was even a state and aligned culturally more more closely with Syria and Lebanon than Egypt.

Wasn't Palestine part of Greater Syria? In fact, I know that is how it was recently.

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

The Palestinian Congress had a much closer cultural heritage with Syria and Lebanon and one of the original ideas of the congress was to form a single country out of those three regions yes. They are all culturally Levantine Arabs, and the Syria region has a history of being connected to Egypt as well, particularly through the rule of Muhammad Ali of Egypt.

Today, there are people in the Middle East who want to form a united Caliphate from Morocco all the way to Pakistan. Israel is interfering with this dream of a Caliphate.

[Alphi]

Today, there are people in the Middle East who want to form a united Caliphate from Morocco all the way to Pakistan. Israel is interfering with this dream of a Caliphate.

I think everyone would agree that a caliphate run by madmen like those is more dangerous than Hamas, IRAN and Isreal put together.

It is a shame that the Israelis cannot see that by killing women and children (whether intentional or not) they are only giving more soldiers and more propaganda material to the enemies of Israel.

I do not want a bigger Islamist threat in the middle east but it seems like Israel do because rather than doing what Iran is doing and joining the fight against ISIS.. Israel seems hell bent on pushing the Palestinians towards them.

I really cannot understand Isreal's foreign policy... but then again I never could understand the right wing warmongering foreign policies of the bush administration either.

[noviapriani]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

I'm pretty sure that the people are actually real; if not Israel is bombing a bunch of empty land for no reason. That's like saying Hashemites aren't Hashemites because they are Arab. Or that Omar Bashir isn't Bedouin because he is Arab. that's a pretty shallow way of looking at Middle Eastern and North African identity structures.

Nonsense.The Hashemites have a very long history and trace their roots back to the early stages of Islam.'palestinians' trace their roots back to the 1960's when an Egyptian became their leader.

Someone is obviously unaware that the first Palestinian Congress was held long before Israel was even a state and aligned culturally more more closely with Syria and Lebanon than Egypt.

I exaggerated slightly for comedic effect, but of course the 'palestinians' are a new invention. The fact they have absolutely no verifiable history through archaeological data, is testament to that.

Not a single coin, clay pot - nothing points to a 'palestinian' people.

As I said earlier, many of their surnames betray their origins.
In fact, I'll let a Hamas guy explain it better than I can

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=efa_1333570776


I guess the good bit starts at 01:17

Wasn't Palestine part of Greater Syria? In fact, I know that is how it was recently.

But didn't the Romans, when they kicked the Jews out of Israel, after 70 AD, rename the region Syria-Palestina after the Jews' arch-enemies the Philistines?

It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria". - said to the UN Security Council in 1956 by Ahmed Shukeiry, who later founded the PLO - the Palestine Liberation Organization.

[zolace]

From that video, it seems that the Hamas representative will not give up on taking every inch of Israel. To him, Jihad is more important than food and water.

I think the best solution to this problem is to stop Hamas from being a threat, the way Israel is doing now, and then sit down and talk to Abbas and Fatah about the best way to implement a two state solution.

[Alphi]

Not a single coin, clay pot - nothing points to a 'palestinian' people.

there is so much archaeological evidence for the  philistines / Palestinians.. that its not funny.
its even written in the old testiment and the jewish version too.

the ancient Egyptians and the romans wrote about them too.

Isreali archaeologists lead the way when it comes to philistine archaeology.

its like saying that the Canaanites and phonecians didn't exist either.
how can you live in so much denial?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8n6PsRdhV4

[noviapriani]

From that video, it seems that the Hamas representative will not give up on taking every inch of Israel. To him, Jihad is more important than food and water.

I think the best solution to this problem is to stop Hamas from being a threat, the way Israel is doing now, and then sit down and talk to Abbas and Fatah about the best way to implement a two state solution.

They're certainly a bunch of pricks

Unfortunately they're a deeply rooted bunch of pricks embedded in the fabric of 'palestinian' society. You can't kill an idea and all that.

Rooting them out would cost thousands of lives and perhaps be to no avail, as a new Hamas II springs up.

International political pressure won't allow Israel to do that anyway. The Arab world's ability to affect western economies and security always brings pressure to bear on Israel eventually.

[noviapriani]

Not a single coin, clay pot - nothing points to a 'palestinian' people.

there is so much archaeological evidence for the  philistines / Palestinians.. that its not funny.
its even written in the old testiment and the jewish version too.

Isreali archaeologists lead the way when it comes to philistine archaeology.

its like saying that the Canaanites and phonecians didn't exist either.
how can you live in so much denial?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8n6PsRdhV4

ok.they found an altar...where it says that was philistines altar?

[Alphi]

Not a single coin, clay pot - nothing points to a 'palestinian' people.

there is so much archaeological evidence for the  philistines / Palestinians.. that its not funny.
its even written in the old testiment and the jewish version too.

Isreali archaeologists lead the way when it comes to philistine archaeology.

its like saying that the Canaanites and phonecians didn't exist either.
how can you live in so much denial?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8n6PsRdhV4

ok.they found an altar...where it says that was philistines altar?

listen to the guy when he explains it to you he talks about it for 3 minutes...

maybe this one will help you.. its clearer.. and more detailed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaf7BDlY1cE

[noviapriani]

European countries do not want the baboons running wild in the streets. They're already suffering with riots in the likes of France - where Muslim riots seem like an annual event.

I think most Israelis believe that a two state solution needs to be tried, but also believe that it won't be the end of the conflict.

The question is, how big a price will Israel have to pay to try this two state solution out - and if it proves to be disastrous with continued attacks on Israel, will they finally be vindicated? or will they (as I suspect) still get the blame in some measure.
.....and 13 Israeli Soldiers have died in an operation in Gaza.

[Rigon]

I really cannot comprehend how there is an "anti isreal" argument in this, let alone mass riots in other countries against them defending their citizens.

It pretty much is this is my mind... If you are against Isreal in this conflict, you are an anti-semitic piece of shit human who deserves to die choking on your own feces.

[umair127]

European countries do not want the baboons running wild in the streets. They're already suffering with riots in the likes of France - where Muslim riots seem like an annual event.

I think most Israelis believe that a two state solution needs to be tried, but also believe that it won't be the end of the conflict.

The question is, how big a price will Israel have to pay to try this two state solution out - and if it proves to be disastrous with continued attacks on Israel, will they finally be vindicated? or will they (as I suspect) still get the blame in some measure.
.....and 13 Israeli Soldiers have died in an operation in Gaza.

You can thank Israeli conservatives for that. Meanwhile, the IDF is shelling Shajayea and has killed over 60 Palestinians there.

[Alphi]

European countries do not want the baboons running wild in the streets. They're already suffering with riots in the likes of France - where Muslim riots seem like an annual event.

I think most Israelis believe that a two state solution needs to be tried, but also believe that it won't be the end of the conflict.

The question is, how big a price will Israel have to pay to try this two state solution out - and if it proves to be disastrous with continued attacks on Israel, will they finally be vindicated? or will they (as I suspect) still get the blame in some measure.
.....and 13 Israeli Soldiers have died in an operation in Gaza.

I think if you study the past you will find that Jews and Palestinians have a shared history of 3000 years..
education is the key to social harmony. what hamas and isreal are doing right now is filling their peoples heads with propaganda.

the only thing that can fix that is dialog and education.

[zolace]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

By this logic since Israelis are mostly Russian and Polish and should be summarily sent back to their countries of origin.
Ignorant biased comment
200 Palestinians killed -> Human shields, missiles hidden in their houses
2 Israeli soldiers killed -> War crime

[umair127]

Not a single coin, clay pot - nothing points to a 'palestinian' people.

there is so much archaeological evidence for the  philistines / Palestinians.. that its not funny.
its even written in the old testiment and the jewish version too.

Isreali archaeologists lead the way when it comes to philistine archaeology.

its like saying that the Canaanites and phonecians didn't exist either.
how can you live in so much denial?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8n6PsRdhV4

ok.they found an altar...where it says that was philistines altar?

listen to the guy when he explains it to you he talks about it for 3 minutes...

maybe this one will help you.. its clearer.. and more detailed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaf7BDlY1cE

No archaeological evidence exists that denies various groups of “sea people” were in Canaan long before the arrival of the main body in the early twelfth century B.C. (see Unger, 1954, p. 91; Archer, 1964, p. 266; Harrison, 1963, p. 32). To assume that not a single group of Philistines lived in Palestine during the time of Abraham because archaeology has not documented them until about 1190 B.C. is to argue from negative evidence and is without substantial weight. In response to those who would deny the Philistines’ existence based upon their silence in the archeological world before this time, professor Kitchen stated: “Inscriptionally, we know so little about the Aegean peoples as compared with those of the rest of the Ancient Near East in the second millennium B.C., that it is premature to deny outright the possible existence of Philistines in the Aegean area before 1200 B.C.” (1966, p. 80n). Likely, successive waves of sea peoples from the Aegean Sea migrated to Canaan, even as early as Abraham’s time, and continued coming until the massive movement in the twelfth century B.C. (Archer, 1970, p. 18).
https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=6&article=671

[Rigon]

so one conceptual thing i don't totally understand. if israel in some sense stole the lands from the palestinians, didn't the palestinians steal the land from the romans, who stole the land from the greeks, who stole the land from the persians, who stole the land from the babylonians, who stole the land from the assyrians, who stole the land from the jews? i don't understand why the "right" to the land started arbitrarily at one point in time (so the argument seems to me to go).

'palestinians' are a new creation/fabrication.

A weapon to use against Israel.

They are Arabs.

If you look at their surnames, many of them betray their origin. Far from being a 'palestinan' people, one of the most common names in Gaza is "Al-Masri" which means "The Egyptian".

By this logic since Israelis are mostly Russian and Polish and should be summarily sent back to their countries of origin.
Ignorant biased comment
200 Palestinians killed -> Human shields, missiles hidden in their houses
2 Israeli soldiers killed -> War crime

Half of Israel's six million Jews are from North Africa, Southwest Asia, and Ethiopia. The other three million are Eastern European.

I just had to clarify this.

[zolace]

It is largely Jihadi Salafi groups firing the rockets, groups that are actually opposed to Hamas, which is why it is easier to recognize the overzealous targeting of Hamas in the campaign. the same was true of their search for and accusations surrounding the missing students which third party groups claimed responsibility for, but which Netanyahu took the opportunity to blame on Hamas instead and used it as a justification to illegally harass and target Hamas affiliates.

Easy. Because these Salafist groups are operating because of either the incompetence of Hamas, or their weakness, and because of the acquiescence or support of the civilian population.
Collective responsibility merits collective punishment. Gaza's population supported Hamas, and acquiesces to, if not outright supports the Salafists. It makes absolute sense to hold them collectively responsible for allowing terrorists to operate amongst them.

There's never been a good example of an occupying force succeeding with a population-centric counter insurgency strategy. The most successful examples of crushing insurgencies, like Sri Lanka, involved a willingness to use violence and force to achieve victory.

You're contradicting yourself here, Salafists tend to hate the Muslim Brotherhood. Claiming that the Gazan population loves both the Salafists and Hamas doesn't make any sense. It's also dumb to assume that just because a group operates within a territory that 1.) the government likes them and 2.) that the population likes them. I'm pretty sure that the people who suffer from Mayi Mayi attacks in the DRC don't do so with smiles. Nor does it make sense to bomb government forces that are aligned against them if your goal is to see them destroyed. It's pretty dumb to bomb Kinshasa and kill their soldiers while asking them why they aren't able to kill off the M23 rebels.

Collective responsibility merits collective punishment. Gaza's population supported Hamas, and acquiesces to, if not outright supports the Salafists. It makes absolute sense to hold them collectively responsible for allowing terrorists to operate amongst them.

Of course using collective punishment like that in the Congo is stupid. It would be stupid to kill civilians in Herat or other non-Pashtun regions of Afghanistan in response to the Taliban’s insurgency for the same reason. In either case, they’re far removed from the conflict and don’t really have the ability to intervene.

In contrast, the Salafists are operating amongst civilians in Gaza. The civilians aren’t making any serious attempt to stop them and in all probability, are actively aiding them. If the M23 were getting support from particular villages, then it would make sense to target those civilians. Similarly, Pashtun villages that collaborate with insurgents should be demolished by carpet bombing. Gaza’s civilians must be taught to stop supporting people who attack Israel, so it makes sense to collectively punish them.

Personally, I’d be far less restrained than the Israelis were being if insurgents in some neighboring country were firing rockets at mine.

[Alphi]

Personally, I’d be far less restrained than the Israelis were being if insurgents in some neighboring country were firing rockets at mine.

that's just it.. they aren't in a neighboring country Isreal / Palestine is the same land and the same country.

If one day you were happily sitting in your house and someone came along at gun point and forced you and your family onto the street.. what would you do? stand there and hold up a sign saying "can I have my house back please?"... even if you did that.. could you do it for 50 years?

Now clearly the violence is not getting anyone anywhere but you cant really blame them for being frustrated considering they have been forced to live blockaded and surrounded on all sides by walls, fences and guns pointed at them.

its not like they have a choice to leave. Its not like they can tell the extremists in their group to "go away".. its not like they can store their weapons "away from civilians" they are all locked in together in a very densely packed tight space.