Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[zolace]

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

A good part of the answer to this is that Israel does not believe Abbas has the gravitas to get the job done. Linking up with Hamas did not help that at all. You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair. When I think of Israel, I look at them as a democracy in name only, and only going that far in order to keep the goodwill of the US. Israel is the bully on the block because they have by far the most and best firepower. And as long as they do have that...which they do, and as long as they are willing to use it...which they are, and as long as they keep pointing to rockets firing on Israel...they will continue to kill large numbers of people.

[sana8410]

I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

And yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that Israel is at fault for while i've already said that I strongly dislike Hamas and want to see it marginalized and dismantled while simultaneously not denying any of the human rights abuses that they have engaged in. I'm not the one with the seeming double standards here in my stances.

I'm not going to deal the prior stuff because it's not really what I was trying to discuss. I can easily acknowledge Israel's fault in many things. The most obvious being that if you try to use force to keep people in poverty and oppression, they will ALWAYS be willing to die to try and lift the yoke. That's human nature, and a serious problem with ISrael. What I see no point in is discussing breaches by either side, and I accidentally let myself get drawn into it. I'm only interested in pragmatic solutions. And as long as Israel has the trump hand, which it will for longer than I will be alive, the way to negotiate is not to throw rockets at them. Tempting as it may be out of anger, or frustration, or whatever. That is the reality on the ground.

How can one hope to make pragmatic solutions without understanding the details of ceasefire efforts, the structure of Hamas, or the grievances of the Palestinians? You can't ignore the above if you are interested in pragmatic or sustainable solutions.

[zolace]

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change. If Palestinians continue to shoot rockets, kill nonviolent protesters for protesting against Hamas, make over the top statements about jews mixing Christian blood in Matzo, then the American public will NEVER drop their support of Israel. And I hate to tell you the bad news...even if Israel is provoking an attack, it can't be allowed to happen.

[zolace]

This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what is possible. This is no different than the gun debate in the US. While it's possible to make some changes along the margin, it would only be possible if it were approached softly. With the history of fighting between pro and anti gun groups, it would take years of soft approaches to accomplish anything. Instead, the people listened to are the BAN ALL GUNS idiots, who do nothing but destroy their own case.

[sana8410]

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

A good part of the answer to this is that Israel does not believe Abbas has the gravitas to get the job done. Linking up with Hamas did not help that at all. You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair. When I think of Israel, I look at them as a democracy in name only, and only going that far in order to keep the goodwill of the US. Israel is the bully on the block because they have by far the most and best firepower. And as long as they do have that...which they do, and as long as they are willing to use it...which they are, and as long as they keep pointing to rockets firing on Israel...they will continue to kill large numbers of people.

1.) Abbas has been able to very effectively increase Palestinian security in the West Bank so unless you can get more specific then I can't really concede to your point.

2.) a unity government used to be a per-requsite by Israel and the lack of it an excuse not to engage and now it's existence is an excuse not to engage? Which is it?

3.) The unity government is a very new issue and doesn't account for Israel's lack of engagement over the last 8 years.

[zolace]

If you really think there is a quick solution for the Israeli Palestinian that involves Israel backing down initially, then you would also think that a loud group calling for the repeal of the second amendment just might win. Neither is even remotely possible at this time, or for the next 30 years. And I'm not discussing your personal opinion of gun control, btw. I don't know your position, and it's only an analogy.

[Alphi]

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change. If Palestinians continue to shoot rockets, kill nonviolent protesters for protesting against Hamas, make over the top statements about jews mixing Christian blood in Matzo, then the American public will NEVER drop their support of Israel. And I hate to tell you the bad news...even if Israel is provoking an attack, it can't be allowed to happen.

public support for Isreal has been steadily falling for years.. the only time it rises is when they have a conflict like this... Claiming to be under threat by Terrorism is the only way that Isreal can get public support nowdays and yes Hamas feeds that by continuing to fire rockets when they know they wont do much damage.

I'm not sure if ISIS will change the ballgame but if they do destabilize Jordan then Isreal wont be able to hold back the millions of refugees streaming across the border. It looks like things can only get worse before they get better..

[sana8410]

You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair.

I'm not asking for fair. I'm asking for the provision of basic human rights and compliance with basic international laws. Fair would be a one state solution with Palestinians having full citizenship rights. That's not what I am seeking.

[zolace]

I find the irony in you saying Israel doesn't recognize a state entity great, considering the position of Hamas. And you wonder why I say both sides are at fault equally?

And yet you don't seem to want to acknowledge anything that Israel is at fault for while i've already said that I strongly dislike Hamas and want to see it marginalized and dismantled while simultaneously not denying any of the human rights abuses that they have engaged in. I'm not the one with the seeming double standards here in my stances.

I'm not going to deal the prior stuff because it's not really what I was trying to discuss. I can easily acknowledge Israel's fault in many things. The most obvious being that if you try to use force to keep people in poverty and oppression, they will ALWAYS be willing to die to try and lift the yoke. That's human nature, and a serious problem with ISrael. What I see no point in is discussing breaches by either side, and I accidentally let myself get drawn into it. I'm only interested in pragmatic solutions. And as long as Israel has the trump hand, which it will for longer than I will be alive, the way to negotiate is not to throw rockets at them. Tempting as it may be out of anger, or frustration, or whatever. That is the reality on the ground.

How can one hope to make pragmatic solutions without understanding the details of ceasefire efforts, the structure of Hamas, or the grievances of the Palestinians? You can't ignore the above if you are interested in pragmatic or sustainable solutions.

They aren't particularly important in the sense that Israel will do what it feels is in their own best interests, whether you or I think they are right. And they have the muscle to make that happen.

[zolace]

But I would like to browse through some examples if possible of the sort of blatant disregard for ceasefires such as the recent Hamas disaster.

There are hundreds of them, what specifically would you like an example of?

This is just rhetoric. I suspect Israel would be willing to engage in peace talks with anyone that agrees that Israel actually exists.

Abbas has always recognized Israel's right to exist, that was granted by the Palestinian Authority before he even came into power, and it certainly hasn't made Israel any more willing to halt settlement expansion as per their past peace plan promises.

As long as Palestinians elect Hamas, it's kind of pointless to expect Israel to negotiate with people only negotiating in bad faith.

This is just rhetoric

I think I answered this in the body of this post. I'm not arguing that Israel is not culpable. I'm saying there is no moving forward when there are rockets falling on Israel, and when Hamas...whether you like them or not...refuse to acknowledge Israel exists. In truth, Israel's choices are pretty limited when you consider the geography of the area, and the weaponry available to Hamas.

I find this to be a bit of a scapegoat excuse in the face of the fact that Israel does have a partner for peace with which to work in Abbas and has refused to do so for the past 8 years regardless of how calm or volatile things are over in Gaza. You claim that Israel would be a partner for peace if there were no rockets? Then why hasn't Israel lived up to any of its West Bank specific peace plan promises to the PA despite years of peace in the West Bank? Why haven't we seen any follow through on peace plan promises even when things are also quiet in Gaza?

A good part of the answer to this is that Israel does not believe Abbas has the gravitas to get the job done. Linking up with Hamas did not help that at all. You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair. When I think of Israel, I look at them as a democracy in name only, and only going that far in order to keep the goodwill of the US. Israel is the bully on the block because they have by far the most and best firepower. And as long as they do have that...which they do, and as long as they are willing to use it...which they are, and as long as they keep pointing to rockets firing on Israel...they will continue to kill large numbers of people.

1.) Abbas has been able to very effectively increase Palestinian security in the West Bank so unless you can get more specific then I can't really concede to your point.

2.) a unity government used to be a per-requsite by Israel and the lack of it an excuse not to engage and now it's existence is an excuse not to engage? Which is it?

3.) The unity government is a very new issue and doesn't account for Israel's lack of engagement over the last 8 years.

Right. But he doesn't have the ability to do so in Gaza.
It doesn't matter if you believe Israel to be duplicitous. They are easily able to deflect this.
Israel can give a very solid perspective on why they are in the right, therefore pragmatically, this isn't important.

[sana8410]

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change

Once again, I don't find anything to support this idea that things would change if rocket attacks stopped. I am against them and think they should stop, but statistically speaking the notion that Israel is a larger partner for peace in the absence of rocket fire is mathematically false and carries no supporting evidence.

[bryant.coleman]

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change.

Right now, both the Palestinian Authority and Israel are being ruled by a hawkish group of people, who are not ready for any sort of compromise. The ultimate aim of Hamas is the total annihilation of the Israelis. Likewise, Netanyahu is dreaming to expel all the Arabs from Palestine and make it a Jewish territory. In general, people in the middle-eastern region are getting more right-wing by the day. The situation will worsen in the future.

[zolace]

You seem to be looking for me to defend Israel. Let me make this easy. I don't defend Israel. What they're doing isn't "fair". But the sad truth is that life isn't fair.

I'm not asking for fair. I'm asking for the provision of basic human rights and compliance with basic international laws. Fair would be a one state solution with Palestinians having full citizenship rights. That's not what I am seeking.

You will never convince anyone that Israel is the chief violator of human rights when peaceful protesters in Gaza are shot because Hamas doesn't like it, and Hamas says that Jews are cannibals. It's fucking ridiculous.

[sana8410]

This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what is possible.

Right, what is possible won't change until attitudes in the US and Israel change which is exactly why it is so important to speak out about the abuses that are going on, the failings that are taking place, and yes, what is fair. Without that dialogue there would be nothing to push public opinion change. It is of vital importance to keep reiterating what SHOULD happen (with a healthy dash of pragmatism) in the hopes of one day coming close to it.

[Alphi]

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change.

Right now, both the Palestinian Authority and Israel are being ruled by a hawkish group of people, who are not ready for any sort of compromise. The ultimate aim of Hamas is the total annihilation of the Israelis. Likewise, Netanyahu is dreaming to expel all the Arabs from Palestine and make it a Jewish territory. In general, people in the middle-eastern region are getting more right-wing by the day. The situation will worsen in the future.

not the palestinian authority just Hamas in Gaza.. the PA is well in the pocket of Isreal now. They are paid by Isreal so when Isreal says jump they say.. how high.

[Alphi]

This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what is possible.

Right, what is possible won't change until attitudes in the US and Israel change which is exactly why it is so important to speak out about the abuses that are going on, the failings that are taking place, and yes, what is fair. Without that dialogue there would be nothing to push public opinion change. It is of vital importance to keep reiterating what SHOULD happen (with a healthy dash of pragmatism) in the hopes of one day coming close to it.

thats right.. you either speak out and let the civil rights movement solve the problem
or keep your mouth shut and let the soldiers and militants try to solve it.

[zolace]

If you want that to change, then Palestinian tactics have to change

Once again, I don't find anything to support this idea that things would change if rocket attacks stopped. I am against them and think they should stop, but statistically speaking the notion that Israel is a larger partner for peace in the absence of rocket fire is mathematically false and carries no supporting evidence.

Why do you think they should stop? As far as the larger...by that I assume you mean better...partner, that's just a talking point that doesn't really matter yet.

[zolace]

This isn't a question of right and wrong, it's a question of what is possible.

Right, what is possible won't change until attitudes in the US and Israel change which is exactly why it is so important to speak out about the abuses that are going on, the failings that are taking place, and yes, what is fair. Without that dialogue there would be nothing to push public opinion change. It is of vital importance to keep reiterating what SHOULD happen (with a healthy dash of pragmatism) in the hopes of one day coming close to it.

Here's the thing...you are suggesting that attitudes in the US will change while Israel can easily point to Palestinians being mindless bigots, saying things that disgust normal people worldwide. It won't happen. Neither democrats nor republicans have ANY interest in doing anything other than support Israel. That isn't going to change when Palestinians can be shown...rightly or wrongly...to act like animals. I'm using loaded rhetoric for a reason here. That is exactly how things are portrayed, and it's easy to do because of incidents like the ones I pointed out.

First, Palestinians have to be viewed as civilized before anyone important in the US will take the risk of being on their side.

[zolace]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

[sana8410]

I have to run for today...I look forward to continuing the discussion between the pragmatist(me) and the ideologue(you).

The above isn't pragmatic. It ignores the very real impacts that dialogue has in framing the issue. Your comments that US attitudes won't change is also statistically incorrect, they have been changing over the years it just isn't close to a tipping point yet, as has the international response to such incursions. I find your "pragmatism" to be a little lopsided because it recognizes the power of Israeli PR and propaganda but completely ignores the concept of PR and propaganda from Palestinian factions and completely ignores international pressures, not only on Israel, but on the US as well. I'd also argue that it is in no way pragmatic to lump all Palestinian factions together or to ignore the evolution of insurgency and the threat of a third intifada as the Abbas administration gets further undermined by violence in Gaza. That's just an excuse to avoid talking about issues that you might not be as well versed in.

finally your final line rather ignores the entire history of modern conflict resolution. That's not the way it works so leaning on that isn't very "pragmatic".