Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[zolace]

That's always been my stance since Hamas' takeover of Gaza. A separate productive discourse with Abbas in the West Bank focusing on West Bank specific peace plan promises and issues. As Palestinians get more of what they want / need and see progress on Palestinian state building through Abbas' tactics while things remain stagnant for Hamas, then that rather effectively politically marginalizes Hamas. Unfortunately as things stand now, in the face of Israeli administration refusal to halt settlement expansion or live up to any West Bank specific peace promises / hold constructive and real talks with Abbas, we see the opposite happening. Abbas weakened and portrayed as a puppet in the face of Israeli abuses while Hamas is the only faction seen as resisting Israel.

I think Abbas can't move this forward. Circumstance is what it is. But a strong business leader who isn't interested in war or extreme positions could use his support to get put into power, and do the needful. No guarantees, of course, but there is a decent chance.

It won't happen though, even though this still the most opportune time. It gets less opportune as time passes, and the window will eventually close once again for several years. Sadly.

That's my goal too, for the most part. I don't really care if Al Qaeda ever has dignity for example, but we can't and shouldn't allow Al Qaeda style cells disrupt a larger peace process between the main actors. Just like we shouldn't let settler violence stop it. Which is of course why it is vital to be able to distinguish between Hamas and these other smaller factions. Which Israel can, it just generally doesn't have any incentive to do so publicly.

Nice maneuver.

But that isn't exactly what I meant by differentiating. There is no way to differentiate within Israel when it's in Israel's interests to blame everything on who they choose. It's impossible to prove. The only way for success is to vehemently condemn acts like that, and Hamas doesn't have the...I don't know if status is exactly the right word...to make that believable to the world. There needs to be a central government to say the right things, and unfortunately a method for repressing extremist comments. Yes, that opposes Jeffersonian democracy ideals. But there isn't going to be a Jeffersonian democracy there for centuries if ever, so it's a moot problem.

[Rigon]

Hamas actively fights other more Salafi factions in Gaza that attack Israel as well. They've done so for years and have even rescued foreign journalists who had been captured by such groups. As for the Islamic Jihad movement, they are larger players that Hamas has tried a more co-opt approach on. Hamas can usually coerce them into following plans, but they can't always outright control them. Islamic Jihad unlike Hamas has no really strong service provision wing and are mostly just militants. As base militants they have far less incentive to abide by ceasefires. They also don't like Hamas always speaking for them and are usually represented as a third party in some peace talks (they have a delegation partaking in ongoing ceasefire talks currently for example).

[Rigon]

And in the West Bank: The Palestinian Authority does marginalize them and keep them under their thumb / combat them. The Palestinian Authority also hindered Hamas' service production in the West Bank in order to keep them under control as well (a tactic picked up in 2007).

[Rigon]

That's always been my stance since Hamas' takeover of Gaza. A separate productive discourse with Abbas in the West Bank focusing on West Bank specific peace plan promises and issues. As Palestinians get more of what they want / need and see progress on Palestinian state building through Abbas' tactics while things remain stagnant for Hamas, then that rather effectively politically marginalizes Hamas. Unfortunately as things stand now, in the face of Israeli administration refusal to halt settlement expansion or live up to any West Bank specific peace promises / hold constructive and real talks with Abbas, we see the opposite happening. Abbas weakened and portrayed as a puppet in the face of Israeli abuses while Hamas is the only faction seen as resisting Israel.

I think Abbas can't move this forward. Circumstance is what it is. But a strong business leader who isn't interested in war or extreme positions could use his support to get put into power, and do the needful. No guarantees, of course, but there is a decent chance.

It won't happen though, even though this still the most opportune time. It gets less opportune as time passes, and the window will eventually close once again for several years. Sadly.

That's my goal too, for the most part. I don't really care if Al Qaeda ever has dignity for example, but we can't and shouldn't allow Al Qaeda style cells disrupt a larger peace process between the main actors. Just like we shouldn't let settler violence stop it. Which is of course why it is vital to be able to distinguish between Hamas and these other smaller factions. Which Israel can, it just generally doesn't have any incentive to do so publicly.

Nice maneuver.

But that isn't exactly what I meant by differentiating. There is no way to differentiate within Israel when it's in Israel's interests to blame everything on who they choose. It's impossible to prove. The only way for success is to vehemently condemn acts like that, and Hamas doesn't have the...I don't know if status is exactly the right word...to make that believable to the world. There needs to be a central government to say the right things, and unfortunately a method for repressing extremist comments. Yes, that opposes Jeffersonian democracy ideals. But there isn't going to be a Jeffersonian democracy there for centuries if ever, so it's a moot problem.

Haha, it wasn't really meant to be a maneuver per say, it's just that there are always entrenched actors within conflict that have no incentives to see said conflict end and these actors will try to disrupt peace processes. The question becomes: do we want that to happen here?

[zolace]

Hamas actively fights other more Salafi factions in Gaza that attack Israel as well. They've done so for years and have even rescued foreign journalists who had been captured by such groups. As for the Islamic Jihad movement, they are larger players that Hamas has tried a more co-opt approach on. Hamas can usually coerce them into following plans, but they can't always outright control them. Islamic Jihad unlike Hamas has no really strong service provision wing and are mostly just militants. As base militants they have far less incentive to abide by ceasefires. They also don't like Hamas always speaking for them and are usually represented as a third party in some peace talks (they have a delegation partaking in ongoing ceasefire talks currently for example).

Much like Hamas, he is pigeonholed. Hamas is the villain, and Abbas is the weak politician who just can't control the extremists. Mind you, I'm not saying any of this is factually true, I'm just saying that is the perspective in most western countries. Once a politician is diminished that way, or a business leader for that matter, things just don't get better. Well, there are exceptions, but I don't see Abbas as another Churchill, or Palestine as Great Britain.

[Rigon]

As for the condemning, that's what the unity government was for, and that's one reason why it was so threatening to Israel. Hence the current conflict. If the unity government survives then we may still have such an opportunity, but it will take discourse time to recover from Operation Protective Edge, which will give Netanyahu's administration plenty of time to come up with other tactics to disrupt the unity government. And unfortunately Israel has proven very adept at this in the past and Hamas and especially the Palestinian Jihad are temperamental enough to be pushed.

[Rigon]

Hamas actively fights other more Salafi factions in Gaza that attack Israel as well. They've done so for years and have even rescued foreign journalists who had been captured by such groups. As for the Islamic Jihad movement, they are larger players that Hamas has tried a more co-opt approach on. Hamas can usually coerce them into following plans, but they can't always outright control them. Islamic Jihad unlike Hamas has no really strong service provision wing and are mostly just militants. As base militants they have far less incentive to abide by ceasefires. They also don't like Hamas always speaking for them and are usually represented as a third party in some peace talks (they have a delegation partaking in ongoing ceasefire talks currently for example).

Much like Hamas, he is pigeonholed. Hamas is the villain, and Abbas is the weak politician who just can't control the extremists. Mind you, I'm not saying any of this is factually true, I'm just saying that is the perspective in most western countries. Once a politician is diminished that way, or a business leader for that matter, things just don't get better. Well, there are exceptions, but I don't see Abbas as another Churchill, or Palestine as Great Britain.

I think Abbas only really looks like that to your average American. G7 government actors should and I think do, know better. And since the latter and not the former are our targets then I see no reason why Abbas can't fill that roll. I suppose the largest issue would be Palestinian perceptions of these people. Abbas has been able to control violence very well in the West Bank, and keep Hamas and the Palestinian Jihad (as well as a dozen other factions) in check. But i wouldn't be opposed to seeing someone else take the reigns (and I don't think Abbas would be opposed to it either) if there was a viable option within the Palestinian polity.

[zolace]

Hamas actively fights other more Salafi factions in Gaza that attack Israel as well. They've done so for years and have even rescued foreign journalists who had been captured by such groups. As for the Islamic Jihad movement, they are larger players that Hamas has tried a more co-opt approach on. Hamas can usually coerce them into following plans, but they can't always outright control them. Islamic Jihad unlike Hamas has no really strong service provision wing and are mostly just militants. As base militants they have far less incentive to abide by ceasefires. They also don't like Hamas always speaking for them and are usually represented as a third party in some peace talks (they have a delegation partaking in ongoing ceasefire talks currently for example).

Much like Hamas, he is pigeonholed. Hamas is the villain, and Abbas is the weak politician who just can't control the extremists. Mind you, I'm not saying any of this is factually true, I'm just saying that is the perspective in most western countries. Once a politician is diminished that way, or a business leader for that matter, things just don't get better. Well, there are exceptions, but I don't see Abbas as another Churchill, or Palestine as Great Britain.

I think Abbas only really looks like that to your average American. G7 government actors should and I think do, know better. And since the latter and not the former are our targets then I see no reason why Abbas can't fill that roll. I suppose the largest issue would be Palestinian perceptions of these people. Abbas has been able to control violence very well in the West Bank, and keep Hamas and the Palestinian Jihad (as well as a dozen other factions) in check. But i wouldn't be opposed to seeing someone else take the reigns (and I don't think Abbas would be opposed to it either) if there was a viable option within the Palestinian polity.

As I mentioned, truth isn't the issue, perception is. The problem is that unless the average American can accept a different perspective on Palestine, there are zero politicians that will do anything. This is why I go back to a different model of governance. Pretty much any American will accept an economic thrust to improve quality of life. It will make sense to them, because it's what they want for themselves. You need to ignore the substantial difference in how business works pretty much everywhere in the middle east versus western democracies. Explaining that would give anyone a headache.

[zolace]

But the concept should work. It just has to be done without too much involvement by Israel, because their goals are somewhat different. It's only important to give Israel what it says it wants publically. Just disregard their private sentiments while protecting yourself from their certain interference. Not an easy path, I know. But if it was easy, it would already be done.

[Rigon]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...558338,00.html

Egypt wants Palestinian Authority to supplant Hamas in Gaza
Cairo proposes deployment of PA security forces into Gaza border perimeter with Israel, moving handling of Strip finances to Abbas.
Elior Levy
Published: 08.13.14, 14:13 / Israel News

Palestinian sources have leaked the latest Egyptian ceasefire proposal on Wednesday, which envisions the Palestinian Authority supplanting Hamas in Gaza. Cairo has called on both sides to accept the proposal by midnight, when the current 72-hour truce ends.


The points covered in the draft document are as follows:

1. Talks on the building of a seaport and airport for Gaza will be postponed in one month, after the situation between the two sides stabilizes. In addition, talks on prisoner releases and the returning of the bodies of IDF soldiers Oron Shaul and Hadar Holdin will also be postponed.

2. The border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip will be opened to movement of both goods and people. Construction materials to rebuild the Strip will be allowed in, and Israel will also authorize the import and export of goods between the Gaza Strip and the west Bank. This, under the terms agreed on between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

3. The border perimeter (the buffer zone on the Gaza border which Palestinians are not allowed to enter, will be cancelled. Palestinian Authority security forces will enter the area instead, as of January 1, 2015.
The perimeter will be gradually reduced: at first to a distance of 300 meters from the border, and in three months (in November) to 100 meters. The second phase will end with the deployment of PA troops to the area.

4. Gaza's fishing area will be gradually expanded from 6 miles to 12 - that will be done in coordination with Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The PA will also coordinate Gaza's financial issues with Israel.

Egypt called on both sides to accept and commit to its proposal by midnight Wednesday, when the current 72-hour ceasefire comes to an end.

The Palestinian side still won't accept these terms, and has demanded to amend it.


The Palestinian sources have not mentioned the opening of the Rafah border crossing, and it was unclear whether this issue will be included in this agreement, or in a separate Egyptian-Palestinian agreement without Israeli involvement.

[zolace]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...558338,00.html

Egypt wants Palestinian Authority to supplant Hamas in Gaza
Cairo proposes deployment of PA security forces into Gaza border perimeter with Israel, moving handling of Strip finances to Abbas.
Elior Levy
Published: 08.13.14, 14:13 / Israel News

Palestinian sources have leaked the latest Egyptian ceasefire proposal on Wednesday, which envisions the Palestinian Authority supplanting Hamas in Gaza. Cairo has called on both sides to accept the proposal by midnight, when the current 72-hour truce ends.


The points covered in the draft document are as follows:

1. Talks on the building of a seaport and airport for Gaza will be postponed in one month, after the situation between the two sides stabilizes. In addition, talks on prisoner releases and the returning of the bodies of IDF soldiers Oron Shaul and Hadar Holdin will also be postponed.

2. The border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip will be opened to movement of both goods and people. Construction materials to rebuild the Strip will be allowed in, and Israel will also authorize the import and export of goods between the Gaza Strip and the west Bank. This, under the terms agreed on between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

3. The border perimeter (the buffer zone on the Gaza border which Palestinians are not allowed to enter, will be cancelled. Palestinian Authority security forces will enter the area instead, as of January 1, 2015.
The perimeter will be gradually reduced: at first to a distance of 300 meters from the border, and in three months (in November) to 100 meters. The second phase will end with the deployment of PA troops to the area.

4. Gaza's fishing area will be gradually expanded from 6 miles to 12 - that will be done in coordination with Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The PA will also coordinate Gaza's financial issues with Israel.

Egypt called on both sides to accept and commit to its proposal by midnight Wednesday, when the current 72-hour ceasefire comes to an end.

The Palestinian side still won't accept these terms, and has demanded to amend it.


The Palestinian sources have not mentioned the opening of the Rafah border crossing, and it was unclear whether this issue will be included in this agreement, or in a separate Egyptian-Palestinian agreement without Israeli involvement.

Ynet is such a biased news source. Don't get me wrong, I'll read it, but it is greatly anti-Palestinian in its reporting. And yet it is heavily there. Just take a look at the article that you posted.

[umair127]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...558338,00.html

Egypt wants Palestinian Authority to supplant Hamas in Gaza
Cairo proposes deployment of PA security forces into Gaza border perimeter with Israel, moving handling of Strip finances to Abbas.
Elior Levy
Published: 08.13.14, 14:13 / Israel News

Palestinian sources have leaked the latest Egyptian ceasefire proposal on Wednesday, which envisions the Palestinian Authority supplanting Hamas in Gaza. Cairo has called on both sides to accept the proposal by midnight, when the current 72-hour truce ends.


The points covered in the draft document are as follows:

1. Talks on the building of a seaport and airport for Gaza will be postponed in one month, after the situation between the two sides stabilizes. In addition, talks on prisoner releases and the returning of the bodies of IDF soldiers Oron Shaul and Hadar Holdin will also be postponed.

2. The border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip will be opened to movement of both goods and people. Construction materials to rebuild the Strip will be allowed in, and Israel will also authorize the import and export of goods between the Gaza Strip and the west Bank. This, under the terms agreed on between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

3. The border perimeter (the buffer zone on the Gaza border which Palestinians are not allowed to enter, will be cancelled. Palestinian Authority security forces will enter the area instead, as of January 1, 2015.
The perimeter will be gradually reduced: at first to a distance of 300 meters from the border, and in three months (in November) to 100 meters. The second phase will end with the deployment of PA troops to the area.

4. Gaza's fishing area will be gradually expanded from 6 miles to 12 - that will be done in coordination with Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The PA will also coordinate Gaza's financial issues with Israel.

Egypt called on both sides to accept and commit to its proposal by midnight Wednesday, when the current 72-hour ceasefire comes to an end.

The Palestinian side still won't accept these terms, and has demanded to amend it.


The Palestinian sources have not mentioned the opening of the Rafah border crossing, and it was unclear whether this issue will be included in this agreement, or in a separate Egyptian-Palestinian agreement without Israeli involvement.

Ynet is such a biased news source. Don't get me wrong, I'll read it, but it is greatly anti-Palestinian in its reporting. And yet it is heavily there. Just take a look at the article that you posted.

I do not see an anti-Palestinian bias on Ynet and JPost. I find them both unbiased. But I do see a very right-wing lean on Arutz Sheva. Arutz Sheva is openly pro-settler.

Note: I am pro-Israel but not pro-settlement.

[zolace]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...558338,00.html

Egypt wants Palestinian Authority to supplant Hamas in Gaza
Cairo proposes deployment of PA security forces into Gaza border perimeter with Israel, moving handling of Strip finances to Abbas.
Elior Levy
Published: 08.13.14, 14:13 / Israel News

Palestinian sources have leaked the latest Egyptian ceasefire proposal on Wednesday, which envisions the Palestinian Authority supplanting Hamas in Gaza. Cairo has called on both sides to accept the proposal by midnight, when the current 72-hour truce ends.


The points covered in the draft document are as follows:

1. Talks on the building of a seaport and airport for Gaza will be postponed in one month, after the situation between the two sides stabilizes. In addition, talks on prisoner releases and the returning of the bodies of IDF soldiers Oron Shaul and Hadar Holdin will also be postponed.

2. The border crossings between Israel and the Gaza Strip will be opened to movement of both goods and people. Construction materials to rebuild the Strip will be allowed in, and Israel will also authorize the import and export of goods between the Gaza Strip and the west Bank. This, under the terms agreed on between Israel and the Palestinian Authority.

3. The border perimeter (the buffer zone on the Gaza border which Palestinians are not allowed to enter, will be cancelled. Palestinian Authority security forces will enter the area instead, as of January 1, 2015.
The perimeter will be gradually reduced: at first to a distance of 300 meters from the border, and in three months (in November) to 100 meters. The second phase will end with the deployment of PA troops to the area.

4. Gaza's fishing area will be gradually expanded from 6 miles to 12 - that will be done in coordination with Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The PA will also coordinate Gaza's financial issues with Israel.

Egypt called on both sides to accept and commit to its proposal by midnight Wednesday, when the current 72-hour ceasefire comes to an end.

The Palestinian side still won't accept these terms, and has demanded to amend it.


The Palestinian sources have not mentioned the opening of the Rafah border crossing, and it was unclear whether this issue will be included in this agreement, or in a separate Egyptian-Palestinian agreement without Israeli involvement.

Ynet is such a biased news source. Don't get me wrong, I'll read it, but it is greatly anti-Palestinian in its reporting. And yet it is heavily there. Just take a look at the article that you posted.

I do not see an anti-Palestinian bias on Ynet and JPost. I find them both unbiased. But I do see a very right-wing lean on Arutz Sheva. Arutz Sheva is openly pro-settler.

Note: I am pro-Israel but not pro-settlement.

Do you seriously not see an anti Palestinian bias to ynet?

I am neither Arabic nor Israeli, and I have zero relatives from anywhere around there, and I find it painfully obvious.

[zolace]

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/news...e.php?id=19455

In what The Wall Street Journal calls the "lowest point" in Israel-U.S. ties, White House reportedly puts military assistance to Israel under close scrutiny after learning that Israeli requests for munitions were approved in military-to-military channels.

US stopped missile shipments to Israel. Looks like Obama does not care one bit about our only ally in the region.

[sana8410]

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/news...e.php?id=19455

In what The Wall Street Journal calls the "lowest point" in Israel-U.S. ties, White House reportedly puts military assistance to Israel under close scrutiny after learning that Israeli requests for munitions were approved in military-to-military channels.

US stopped missile shipments to Israel. Looks like Obama does not care one bit about our only ally in the region.

"The move to suspend the arms supplies comes after White House and State Department officials discovered that the Israeli military had been receiving ammunition from the Pentagon without White House oversight."

[zolace]

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/news...e.php?id=19455

In what The Wall Street Journal calls the "lowest point" in Israel-U.S. ties, White House reportedly puts military assistance to Israel under close scrutiny after learning that Israeli requests for munitions were approved in military-to-military channels.

US stopped missile shipments to Israel. Looks like Obama does not care one bit about our only ally in the region.

"The move to suspend the arms supplies comes after White House and State Department officials discovered that the Israeli military had been receiving ammunition from the Pentagon without White House oversight."

America is upset they accessed special bunkers where America stores weapons in Israel for emergencies without the proper approval. It's not so much as a low point since the proper requirement was always to get approval from congress, this is more just a slap on the wrist. Weapons from overseas will still come in as budgets plan, this means something entirely different.

These bunkers are called WRSA-I's or..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Reserve_Stock

[Swordsoffreedom]

Seems like a fair diagram
Lot of massacres around the world but the ones that the press decides to use are interesting.

[u9y42]

Seems like a fair diagram
Lot of massacres around the world but the ones that the press decides to use are interesting.

Really? To me, that seems more like a "if others can slaughter people by the thousands, why can't we?" sort of excuse. It should go without saying that, regardless of who is doing the killing or how many are killed, that is wrong.

[hdbuck]

Seems like a fair diagram
Lot of massacres around the world but the ones that the press decides to use are interesting.

Really? To me, that seems more like a "if others can slaughter people by the thousands, why can't we?" sort of excuse. It should go without saying that, regardless of who is doing the killing or how many are killed, that is wrong.

+1 how does one acknowledge such shameful thinking?

[Swordsoffreedom]

Seems like a fair diagram
Lot of massacres around the world but the ones that the press decides to use are interesting.

Really? To me, that seems more like a "if others can slaughter people by the thousands, why can't we?" sort of excuse. It should go without saying that, regardless of who is doing the killing or how many are killed, that is wrong.

+1 how does one acknowledge such shameful thinking?

Let me put it another way
I mean its fair in the sense that what the media decides to report can sometimes be small massacures when larger murders and genocides are ignored in other parts of the world
I meant in no way to justify that type of killing just how media sources report on these type of issues.

Iraqbodycount anyone
https://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/

Got another 1481 In July
At 667 for August

Almost at 10,000 for the year to date