Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[sana8410]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

[1714959793]

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[umair127]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

Again, you are suggesting that Palestine...more specifically Gaza, is of enough importance to Americans in general to spend the time to consider the frankly complex issues that are behind the fighting.

The same people who think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_Comes_Honey_Boo_Boo is worth watching. I really think you're dreaming. Just the name Hamas is poison, mostly because they are dumb enough to make extreme statements and do extremely disturbing things...then admit to it.

[sana8410]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

Again, you are suggesting that Palestine...more specifically Gaza, is of enough importance to Americans in general to spend the time to consider the frankly complex issues that are behind the fighting.

The same people who think http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Here_Comes_Honey_Boo_Boo is worth watching. I really think you're dreaming. Just the name Hamas is poison, mostly because they are dumb enough to make extreme statements and do extremely disturbing things...then admit to it.

I look at it a bit differently. I have a set standard when it comes to how much information I need to form a definitive opinion on something. Anything more than a casual glance at the Israeli-Palestinian conflict would be enough to see past the propaganda shell. I realize that many people don't have that standard, particularly it seems, with this issue (many people with whom I speak don't even understand the difference between Gaza or the West Bank or even understand that they are divided territories or don't even know what the Palestinian Authority is, etc). For that though I'll always criticize as I think anyone should.

I also think you have a bit of a misunderstanding as to my expectations when it comes to this issue, which is why it is often hinted or blatantly stated that I am an idealist. Not at all. I have an ideal I would like to see magically happen sure (I'm sure you do too), but that doesn't mean that I think it is likely to happen at all. In fact, I am on record here over a year ago stating that nothing would come of the peace process and that fighting would eventually resume.

I state what does happen, and what should happen, that is an important part of discourse that is largely absent from public spaces when it comes to this issue where sound bytes and propaganda tends to rule the day the world over. I don't expect things to magically change, but I'm also not going to surrender to that system and I will always gladly challenge anyone relying on or utilizing it.

[kuroman]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

I don't get your point in relation to the article posted, can you elaborate some more please ?

[sana8410]

I really think you're dreaming.

Haha, I wrote the above before I even read this. I guess I don't understand what you think I am dreaming of. You seem to keep assigning these expectations to me that I don't have.

[sana8410]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...-Israel-371952

And this is why I believe Hamas is going to continue to look like mindless killers to the US. Some of them are mindless killers; the question is why. Disliking Hamas shouldn't blind people to everything else. I know it can, but only because people want to be small.

I don't get your point in relation to the article posted, can you elaborate some more please ?

I think i said it all by calling Hamas mindless killers,they just kill,even their own people,they have no strategy ..........

[sana8410]

Just the name Hamas is poison, mostly because they are dumb enough to make extreme statements and do extremely disturbing things...then admit to it.

The Hamas name is poison because people don't understand what Hamas is and Hamas is terrible at PR when it comes to western populations, but then again, their PR efforts aren't focused on US populations, but on Arab and Muslim populations.

[umair127]

Just the name Hamas is poison, mostly because they are dumb enough to make extreme statements and do extremely disturbing things...then admit to it.

The Hamas name is poison because people don't understand what Hamas is and Hamas is terrible at PR when it comes to western populations, but then again, their PR efforts aren't focused on US populations, but on Arab and Muslim populations.

Let me put on my great Carnak hat...


Israel will accept it, and within a week both sides will be saying the other side broke it. But Hamas will be the first to send rockets. Yes, I'm prescient.

[sana8410]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

[Swordsoffreedom]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostilities
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

[umair127]

I really think you're dreaming.

Haha, I wrote the above before I even read this. I guess I don't understand what you think I am dreaming of. You seem to keep assigning these expectations to me that I don't have.

It's more of a figure of speech. I doubt you hold extravagant expectations, but many people do. I will say that anyone who believes the American people, who adore Kim Kardashian, Honey boo boo, and Paris Hilton will engage in the critical thinking required to overcome historical preference for Israel IS dreaming.

[sana8410]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

[umair127]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

It all gets blamed on Hamas because Hamas seems to accept liability. For example, according to NPR,

A senior Hamas leader has said the group carried out the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June — the first time anyone from the Islamic militant group has said it was behind an attack that helped spark the current war in the Gaza Strip.

It goes on to attribute it further to the al-Qassam brigades, but basically indicating they are essentially the same group. I haven't heard any denials, although perhaps you have? Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

[umair127]

Which is why I circle back to saying a strong business leader is probably the best solution at this point. They need to categorically separate themselves from any military action in a very public way, then make the easy case for the financial oppression Israel is carrying out. Of course, that person would probably be executed by some group with links to Hamas. Probably call him a traitor like those people they executed a few days ago.

Palestinians are their own worst enemy, and they just don't get it.

[sana8410]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

It all gets blamed on Hamas because Hamas seems to accept liability. For example, according to NPR,

A senior Hamas leader has said the group carried out the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teens in the West Bank in June — the first time anyone from the Islamic militant group has said it was behind an attack that helped spark the current war in the Gaza Strip.

It goes on to attribute it further to the al-Qassam brigades, but basically indicating they are essentially the same group. I haven't heard any denials, although perhaps you have? Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

The Al Qassam Brigade actually IS Hamas' actual armed wing. There is lag between the Hamas political head's calls and Al Qassam's adherence to it at times, but they are the same group in a way that Hamas and say the Palestinian Jihad are not. Technically, Hamas doesn't launch any rockets ever. That is the Al Qassam Brigade's duty under Hamas. It's also why they are known as Qassam rockets.

[Swordsoffreedom]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

Well for Hamas they need time to find funding for more rockets and to re-arm themselves.
For Israel well they got the bloodbath they wanted and left Hamas from their perspective in a much weaker position politically and militarily as they still hold all the cards, destroyed their tunnel system and bombed the crap out of their buildings while portraying them as terrorists to the mass media.

After the already damaged infrastructure got destroyed, Hamas and the Palestinians will also need to rebuild and restore the buildings that were obliterated in their latest spat, so they could both use the ceasefire.

That said between those two countries they are always at a boiling point so while this one may be silent for now its only a matter of time before it'll get hot again since its ongoing like it did a few years ago and will again a few years from now.

_
Hamas, though badly battered, remains in control of Gaza with part of its military arsenal intact. Israel and Egypt will continue to control access to blockaded Gaza, despite Hamas’ long-running demand that the border closures imposed in 2007 be lifted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-says-longterm-truce-agreed-with-israel-9691910.html

[sana8410]

Think of it like the relationship that the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt used to have with its armed wing back in the day. Very similar set-up.

As far as the statement, I'd have to see the source / question it. It was determined by both Israeli police and independent experts that it was more of a lone wolf act, not operating under orders from Hamas.

[sana8410]

Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

Right, but they goad them by blatantly violating the terms of the ceasefire and threatening to destroy them anyway by doing so. Hamas as two options in that case: 1.) Disappear 2.) Launch rockets and fight in the hopes of forcing a reprieve through new ceasefire terms and international attention.

[umair127]

Israel is trolling the Palestinians by goading them into a violent, albeit pointless response, then sitting back and saying "see, they're all terrorists". The violent response is unbelievably stupid and can't win. They are simply massively outgunned.

Right, but they goad them by blatantly violating the terms of the ceasefire and threatening to destroy them anyway by doing so. Hamas as two options in that case: 1.) Disappear 2.) Launch rockets and fight in the hopes of forcing a reprieve through new ceasefire terms and international attention.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/22/342318...-israeli-teens
A third option is to condemn all violence. Israel cannot really go all offensive if they have no cover of rocket fire or kidnappings or whatever to make it look good.

[sana8410]

As far as the OP goes though; Hamas and other Palestinian Gaza factions have announced a ceasefire. We'll see what Israel has to say about it. In either case it depends on talks that will take place in a month on prisoner releases and a port construction and I doubt they will go well.

The ceasefire looks like a complete cessation of hostiles
At least for now the war is over and can be considered finished but what goes on in the shadows and who creates the next hotspot or triggers the next event is uncertain, but at least their is a return of an unsteady peace in the Palestine.

The deal depends on good faith negotiations concerning the release of prisoners and coastal access which there is little precedence of Israel ever honestly engaging in (not without very heavy US pressure and even then only in limited terms). That may or may not be a deal breaker to the point of initiating rocket attacks (it usually isn't right away). Hamas will likely NOT be the first to fire rockets, that would likely be third party Palestinian militant factions (as per usual) which I suppose is the same thing since it all gets blamed on Hamas anyway. In fact, Israel rarely keeps ceasefire agreements very long outside of military action clauses. It knows that in terms of PR people only care about physical attack conditionals as they relate to ceasefires, not to the actual letter of the actual ceasefires as they relate to say, the fishing restrictions, or the opening of crossings.

Well for Hamas they need time to find funding for more rockets and to re-arm themselves.
For Israel well they got the bloodbath they wanted and left Hamas from their perspective in a much weaker position politically and militarily as they still hold all the cards, destroyed their tunnel system and bombed the crap out of their buildings while portraying them as terrorists to the mass media.

After the already damaged infrastructure got destroyed, Hamas and the Palestinians will also need to rebuild and restore the buildings that were obliterated in their latest spat, so they could both use the ceasefire.

That said between those two countries they are always at a boiling point so while this one may be silent for now its only a matter of time before it'll get hot again since its ongoing like it did a few years ago and will again a few years from now.

_
Hamas, though badly battered, remains in control of Gaza with part of its military arsenal intact. Israel and Egypt will continue to control access to blockaded Gaza, despite Hamas’ long-running demand that the border closures imposed in 2007 be lifted.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-hamas-says-longterm-truce-agreed-with-israel-9691910.html

We also have to keep in mind that Hamas only has so much control over third party militant groups. It isn't a federal government, it is more of a confederacy here with Hamas just being the strongest and primary service provider of the strip. So when things get bad due to the blockade and other issues, Hamas ability to reign in these groups weakens. You mentioned the Qassam Brigade, but that is just the group that Hamas has the MOST control over because it is actually headed by Hamas, whereas the others are not.