Israel: Operation Protective Edge

[sana8410]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

[umair127]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

Sometimes you don't need proof or evidence that acts are being done with, at a minimum, the acquiescence of leadership. Take the IRS debacle as a comparative example ,,,

[wassupman]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

[sana8410]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

Sometimes you don't need proof or evidence that acts are being done with, at a minimum, the acquiescence of leadership. Take the IRS debacle as a comparative example ,,,

I have higher standards than that. And your comparison is pretty bogus since Hamas is not in operational control of the West Bank which is where the attack occurred. Also, comparing a spread out terrorist organization with secretive cells to a federal government structure is way off in terms of methodology of operation.

[sana8410]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

[umair127]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?

[sana8410]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?

Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.

[umair127]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?

Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.

i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.

[sana8410]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?

Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.

i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.

Think of it this way then: there is more than one Al Qassam Brigade (which is actually literally true as well).

[umair127]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?

Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.

i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.

Think of it this way then: there is more than one Al Qassam Brigade (which is actually literally true as well).

if i read the wiki page on hamas/al qassam will it explain it?

[sana8410]

what am i missing here?

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

The kidnapping sparked an extensive Israeli crackdown on Hamas in the West Bank.

"It has been said that it is an Israeli conspiracy, and I say it isn't," Arouri states.

"The al-Qassam's mujahedeen were the ones to carry out [the abduction] in show of support for the prisoners' hunger strike," he adds, referring to Palestinian inmates held in Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.611676

What is missing is proof / evidence of the act being ordered by Hamas leadership. We already knew that the people who engaged in it were members of the Al Qassam Brigade in the West Bank. That doesn't mean that they were acting under orders though, especially given the weaker control over Qassam cells in the West Bank (since Hamas' main base of power is in Gaza and abroad in exile) we saw the same operational difficulties and freelancing with the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in Gaza in 2007 after the Palestinian Authority lost control of the Gaza Strip to Hamas.

this feels like semantics to me. your claim was that hamas didn't claim responsibility, not that hamas was or wasn't involved.

It isn't semantics at all. There is a big difference for instance between an IDF soldier engaging in an abuse on his own and an IDF soldier engaging in abuses via direct orders from his chain of command and the Israeli government and much different implications, unless you want to suggest that the Fort Hood shootings were directed by the Obama Administration for example.

you keep on talking about who is or isn't responsible for some reason. i never responded to any claim you made about that. i was responding explicitly to the claim you made about what that guy said (and NOT about who is or isn't responsible).

that being said, weren't you admonishing someone two posts ago for comparing hamas to a large established beaurocratic government?

Right, and he didn't claim that Hamas ordered it. Not semantics; a fact and an important distinction.
Yes, in so far as groups like Hamas generally have even less operational control over its field operatives which makes said operatives much more likely to act on their own than members of a more tightly structured and monitored system like a federal government. Which just makes my comparison of the two in this specific case all the more potent since the well structured government has less of an excuse for such rogue acting and yet it happens anyway, so no one should be surprised that it also happens within organizations like the al Qassam Brigade.

i feel like im missing something. the dude said quite explicitly that al qassam carried it out (mind you, not that members of al qassam carried it out). now, this might be some weird collective usage of nouns... but on the face of it the quote is the quote.

Think of it this way then: there is more than one Al Qassam Brigade (which is actually literally true as well).

if i read the wiki page on hamas/al qassam will it explain it?

No idea, I haven't read it. It is usually pluralized though (Al Qassam Brigades), the trouble with them is that given the territorial divides there are command issues between Gaza and the West Bank. Fatah and its armed wing Al Asqas experienced the same trouble so even while Abbas had denounced violence in the West Bank you still had Fatah elements engaging in violence in Gaza. Then there is, of course, the issue of perceived public operational control. No organization is going to like to admit that it can't control its own members. During the Algerian war for Independence for example the FLN had to take responsibility publicly for a number of acts that it never ordered for the sake of appearing operationally unified and strong. What we really lack in this statement that was made in Turkey by a long exiled leader is clarification.

[CoinCollect]

Fuck Israel!

[sana8410]

His statement was highly ambiguous, when it didn't have any reason to be so. We've seen such things before with other groups like Al Shabaab when it was trying to put forth a public image of control during its three way split and internal power struggle. It becomes especially interesting when the Israeli police reports and independent experts/ analysts both agreed that it hadn't been ordered by Hamas leadership and that they seemed to be operating operationally speaking on their own. The higher ups in the Israeli government are the primary faction stating that Hamas ordered it via primary leadership. Hamas still (right now) denies a role in it.

The truth is hard to get at, I don't know what it is, but neither does anyone with only publicly available records to go off of.

[umair127]

His statement was highly ambiguous, when it didn't have any reason to be so. We've seen such things before with other groups like Al Shabaab when it was trying to put forth a public image of control during its three way split and internal power struggle. It becomes especially interesting when the Israeli police reports and independent experts/ analysts both agreed that it hadn't been ordered by Hamas leadership and that they seemed to be operating operationally speaking on their own. The higher ups in the Israeli government are the primary faction stating that Hamas ordered it via primary leadership. Hamas still (right now) denies a role in it.

The truth is hard to get at, I don't know what it is, but neither does anyone with only publicly available records to go off of.

And who do you want this proof for?


Some sort of world body like the UN? There is no true such world body that will ever matter in a case like this. Russia is a great example. The UN can say what they like, but it doesn't matter. If anything happens in Ukraine that matters, it will be because the US drags Europe kicking and screaming into an effective sanctions routine. Ban Ki-moon making statements will do nothing important. The same applies to Israel.

[umair127]

If we're talking about swaying US public opinion, the Hamas guy just sabotaged any gains Hamas propaganda has made, and reinforced Israeli propaganda.

[sana8410]

His statement was highly ambiguous, when it didn't have any reason to be so. We've seen such things before with other groups like Al Shabaab when it was trying to put forth a public image of control during its three way split and internal power struggle. It becomes especially interesting when the Israeli police reports and independent experts/ analysts both agreed that it hadn't been ordered by Hamas leadership and that they seemed to be operating operationally speaking on their own. The higher ups in the Israeli government are the primary faction stating that Hamas ordered it via primary leadership. Hamas still (right now) denies a role in it.

The truth is hard to get at, I don't know what it is, but neither does anyone with only publicly available records to go off of.

And who do you want this proof for?


Some sort of world body like the UN? There is no true such world body that will ever matter in a case like this. Russia is a great example. The UN can say what they like, but it doesn't matter. If anything happens in Ukraine that matters, it will be because the US drags Europe kicking and screaming into an effective sanctions routine. Ban Ki-moon making statements will do nothing important. The same applies to Israel.

I ask for proof because it is being used in a propaganda effort to justify Operation Protective Edge and make Hamas out to be the main / sole aggressor within the most recent fighting.

Plus I have my standards, so I tend to demand details when hard claims are made of that nature, especially since I am familiar with some of the nuances of conflict.

[umair127]

His statement was highly ambiguous, when it didn't have any reason to be so. We've seen such things before with other groups like Al Shabaab when it was trying to put forth a public image of control during its three way split and internal power struggle. It becomes especially interesting when the Israeli police reports and independent experts/ analysts both agreed that it hadn't been ordered by Hamas leadership and that they seemed to be operating operationally speaking on their own. The higher ups in the Israeli government are the primary faction stating that Hamas ordered it via primary leadership. Hamas still (right now) denies a role in it.

The truth is hard to get at, I don't know what it is, but neither does anyone with only publicly available records to go off of.

And who do you want this proof for?


Some sort of world body like the UN? There is no true such world body that will ever matter in a case like this. Russia is a great example. The UN can say what they like, but it doesn't matter. If anything happens in Ukraine that matters, it will be because the US drags Europe kicking and screaming into an effective sanctions routine. Ban Ki-moon making statements will do nothing important. The same applies to Israel.

I ask for proof because it is being used in a propaganda effort to justify Operation Protective Edge and make Hamas out to be the main / sole aggressor within the most recent fighting.

Plus I have my standards, so I tend to demand details when hard claims are made of that nature, especially since I am familiar with some of the nuances of conflict.

I mean no offense whatsoever, but there is no possible proof that is available to the world in general that would effectively sway your opinion on the situation there. I can understand that, and I understand your reasoning. But let's be honest, you aren't the person either side is trying to sway. The people both sides are trying to sway are the people I described, who watch a few moments of FOX, or MSNBC, or CNN to form opinions, then switch back to Honey boo boo. Violence will never change their minds.

[sana8410]

If we're talking about swaying US public opinion, the Hamas guy just sabotaged any gains Hamas propaganda has made, and reinforced Israeli propaganda.

I don't see how this is really relevant to anything that I've been saying. though your dismissal of international bodies like the UN I find a bit odd in this case, since we have seen very real cases of Israel being pressured into giving up territory and making concessions by external actors and bodies. If Israeli conservatives had their way it would still be in occupation of Gaza, the Sinai, and Southern Lebanon; and the West Bank would have been purged of Arabs and annexed in full by now.

[umair127]

If we're talking about swaying US public opinion, the Hamas guy just sabotaged any gains Hamas propaganda has made, and reinforced Israeli propaganda.

I don't see how this is really relevant to anything that I've been saying. though your dismissal of international bodies like the UN I find a bit odd in this case, since we have seen very real cases of Israel being pressured into giving up territory and making concessions by external actors and bodies. If Israeli conservatives had their way it would still be in occupation of Gaza, the Sinai, and Southern Lebanon; and the West Bank would have been purged of Arabs and annexed in full by now.

I doubt we will agree that Israel has been pressured to do anything in particular. I find it far more likely that they did things they knew could be worked in their favor, then pretended that they were "pressured" into doing it. The UN has no way of bringing effective pressure so long as any one of the security council members opposes it.

[sana8410]

His statement was highly ambiguous, when it didn't have any reason to be so. We've seen such things before with other groups like Al Shabaab when it was trying to put forth a public image of control during its three way split and internal power struggle. It becomes especially interesting when the Israeli police reports and independent experts/ analysts both agreed that it hadn't been ordered by Hamas leadership and that they seemed to be operating operationally speaking on their own. The higher ups in the Israeli government are the primary faction stating that Hamas ordered it via primary leadership. Hamas still (right now) denies a role in it.

The truth is hard to get at, I don't know what it is, but neither does anyone with only publicly available records to go off of.

And who do you want this proof for?


Some sort of world body like the UN? There is no true such world body that will ever matter in a case like this. Russia is a great example. The UN can say what they like, but it doesn't matter. If anything happens in Ukraine that matters, it will be because the US drags Europe kicking and screaming into an effective sanctions routine. Ban Ki-moon making statements will do nothing important. The same applies to Israel.

I ask for proof because it is being used in a propaganda effort to justify Operation Protective Edge and make Hamas out to be the main / sole aggressor within the most recent fighting.

Plus I have my standards, so I tend to demand details when hard claims are made of that nature, especially since I am familiar with some of the nuances of conflict.

I mean no offense whatsoever, but there is no possible proof that is available to the world in general that would effectively sway your opinion on the situation there. I can understand that, and I understand your reasoning. But let's be honest, you aren't the person either side is trying to sway. The people both sides are trying to sway are the people I described, who watch a few moments of FOX, or MSNBC, or CNN to form opinions, then switch back to Honey boo boo. Violence will never change their minds.

Well that is a bit offensive since it implies that I am not capable of changing my mind regardless of the situation and am incapable of impartial analysis. I also find that a bit off since I actually have changed my mind, and quite dramatically, on this issue and used to be a staunch supporter of Israeli occupation which would seem to indicate that my opinion is open to changing dependent upon evidence / research.