SOLAR ENERGY ?

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

what if gov rise charges on non-green energy ... what the impact would be ?

That would help green energy.  But the government won't do that, at least not in the US.  There would be a huge public outcry if they tried.  Plus, the government is in bed with the oil companies, so there's no way they will anyway.

Edit: It is noteworthy that while I don't think the US government would raise the cost of non-green energy, they do have a lot of incentives that promote green energy, like grants for research, tax breaks for building and installing green energy infrastructure (like adding solar panels to a home), etc.

[knightcoin]

what if gov rise charges on non-green energy ... what the impact would be ?

That would help green energy.  But the government won't do that, at least not in the US.  There would be a huge public outcry if they tried.  Plus, the government is in bed with the oil companies, so there's no way they will anyway.

Sad, we live in aan(?) information society ... well I need to get back to some academic papers now. (wow IBM)

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

You know what? I once saw satellite picture of Sahara Desert. There were staged solar collectors on like 1/10 of that desert and descriptions: If you put solar collectors on part of Sahara Desert it will generate energy sufficient to power whole world. Now I am wonder why people does not do that?

Three reasons: up-front cost, inability to transmit electricity very long distances, and cost of nighttime energy storage.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_energy_consumption) says that worldwide electricity consumption in 2008 was 20,279,640 GWh.  Even if you  make an optimistic assumption of 12 hours of perfect sunlight per day and $3 USD/W installed in 2013 (so 365 x 12 / 3 = 1460 Wh/yr/USD), that would still be 20,279,640,000,000,000 Wh/yr / 1460 Wh/yr/USD = $13,890,164,383,562.  So $14T.

You can transmit electricity for a number of miles, but the farther it goes, the more you lose due to resistance of the power lines.

And you need a huge amount of electrical capacity (batteries) to store such large amounts of power for nighttime use.

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

Solar energy shouldn't even be in the convo at the moment.  It is far to expensive up front and doesn't return your investment until way later of in the years.

I often see this posted on social media about how we need to convert roads to solar panels.  It is a great idea....however if we were to do that to just 1 state(larger state) the country would probably double in debt and its already hard to see us getting out of this whole(USA).  Think about redoing the world...

I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

[Altminer79]

Solar energy is environment - friendly.

[leex1528]

I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

Well that is pretty darn interesting, I didn't know that!

If it keeps going like that it would be great, although I live in a crappy part of the states where I don't know if we could successfully use it because we don't get enough sun!  Stupid Minnesota!

[Lauda]

I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

Well that is pretty darn interesting, I didn't know that!

If it keeps going like that it would be great, although I live in a crappy part of the states where I don't know if we could successfully use it because we don't get enough sun!  Stupid Minnesota!

The costs are getting much lower per year, I'm not sure what everyone is waiting for.

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

Well that is pretty darn interesting, I didn't know that!

If it keeps going like that it would be great, although I live in a crappy part of the states where I don't know if we could successfully use it because we don't get enough sun!  Stupid Minnesota!

Oh, man, how can you bash Minnesota like that!  I love the north woods!   But I don't live there, so it's a treat to go for me.

Anyway, there are a lot of places, of course, where solar is not as cost-effective.  You really need dry, desert areas.  The southwest part of the US would likely be the best place in the country.

[leex1528]

Oh, man, how can you bash Minnesota like that!  I love the north woods!   But I don't live there, so it's a treat to go for me.

Anyway, there are a lot of places, of course, where solar is not as cost-effective.  You really need dry, desert areas.  The southwest part of the US would likely be the best place in the country.
[/quote]

I love the north woods too:P 

Its been a rough year this year, 8 straight weeks where the high temp was 0 degrees, up to -30 degree lows during that with windchill of -55 degrees...

Then to follow that up it snowed until May, afterwards it rained for 2 months and flooded every river and we were still unable to go outside...So far we have had 1 day where it reached 90....Now Summer will be coming to an end very shortly and you can barely enjoy it!

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

Well that is pretty darn interesting, I didn't know that!

If it keeps going like that it would be great, although I live in a crappy part of the states where I don't know if we could successfully use it because we don't get enough sun!  Stupid Minnesota!

The costs are getting much lower per year, I'm not sure what everyone is waiting for.

I don't think anyone is waiting around.  From that article: "As a whole, the U.S. installed 4.3GW of PV solar arrays this year, a 27% increase over 2012."  A 27% increase is a lot.  It takes time to ramp up manufacturing.  You can't just increase solar cell production by 100x in a year.  Besides, there's only so much demand.  It's not cost-effective (yet?) to replace existing power plants that work with solar plants, so demand is mostly going to come from the need for more electricity and from the need to replace old power plants that have reached the end of their useful life.  It also takes a lot of land area and of course the right climate to build a solar plant, so you can't just do it anywhere.

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

Oh, man, how can you bash Minnesota like that!  I love the north woods!   But I don't live there, so it's a treat to go for me.

Anyway, there are a lot of places, of course, where solar is not as cost-effective.  You really need dry, desert areas.  The southwest part of the US would likely be the best place in the country.

I love the north woods too:P 

Its been a rough year this year, 8 straight weeks where the high temp was 0 degrees, up to -30 degree lows during that with windchill of -55 degrees...

Then to follow that up it snowed until May, afterwards it rained for 2 months and flooded every river and we were still unable to go outside...So far we have had 1 day where it reached 90....Now Summer will be coming to an end very shortly and you can barely enjoy it!

Ok, yeah, I can see that.  I'm sorry it's been so crappy.  That's one of the biggest reasons that I don't actually want to live in Minnesota: the winters.  I'm in Illinois, and our winters are bad enough.  Of course this last one was one of the most brutal I can remember.

[Meowington]

Help the environment for sure!

[Teodor]

How much is the price for PV or a mixt PV+Wind solar system in the USA or EU countries? In Romania is around 3 Euro per watt. However, there are better ways than just buy expensive photovoltaic systems; we work on this now. After testing I will be able to come with the results so pls let me know if there is someone interested. You also can PM me. We use them for our eco energy efficient houses built in RO and in some EU countries.

[strijelac2311]

its good , for everone , and you can earn on it

[bluefirecorp]

its good , for everone , and you can earn on it

Actually, unless you're doing a huge amount of work yourself, you'll lose out on it. Installed solar panels are ~$3-5 dollars per watt on property you already own. ROI is over 20 years at current electricity prices (averaged out priced throughout the entire USA). Solar panels have a 15-25 year life-span, so you're playing the numbers game, and odds are against you.

[BeeTeeSea]

If I could I get myself a lot of pannels.

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

its good , for everone , and you can earn on it

Actually, unless you're doing a huge amount of work yourself, you'll lose out on it. Installed solar panels are ~$3-5 dollars per watt on property you already own. ROI is over 20 years at current electricity prices (averaged out priced throughout the entire USA). Solar panels have a 15-25 year life-span, so you're playing the numbers game, and odds are against you.

Here's an example from a quick google search:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html

It looks like you can buy the equipment for $1.50 to $2 per watt, depending on the size of the system, and it comes with a 25-year warranty.  I'm not sure how much installation would cost, but I have a hard time believing that it would cost more than a few thousand.  It looks like federal tax credits can also knock off up to 30% of the installation cost.  Let's say you get the system that produces about 866 kWh/month for $10,300.  Let's even say it costs as much to install as the panels cost.  So let's figure $21,000 total for the system, which would be a little less than $15,000 after tax credits.  I hate it when they say "up to" 866 kWh/month, so let's round that down to 800 to be conservative.  Over 25 years, you should get 800*12*25=240,000 kWh out of it.  Let's say you pay $0.08/kWh, which is also fairly conservative.  You'd save $19,200.  So you're already up at least $4,000 over the cost of the system, and that's not even taking into account rising electricity costs over time.  So if you have the cash, it's probably worth it even now, but the savings isn't huge yet.

[bluefirecorp]

its good , for everone , and you can earn on it

Actually, unless you're doing a huge amount of work yourself, you'll lose out on it. Installed solar panels are ~$3-5 dollars per watt on property you already own. ROI is over 20 years at current electricity prices (averaged out priced throughout the entire USA). Solar panels have a 15-25 year life-span, so you're playing the numbers game, and odds are against you.

Here's an example from a quick google search:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html

It looks like you can buy the equipment for $1.50 to $2 per watt, depending on the size of the system, and it comes with a 25-year warranty.  I'm not sure how much installation would cost, but I have a hard time believing that it would cost more than a few thousand.  It looks like federal tax credits can also knock off up to 30% of the installation cost.  Let's say you get the system that produces about 866 kWh/month for $10,300.  Let's even say it costs as much to install as the panels cost.  So let's figure $21,000 total for the system, which would be a little less than $15,000 after tax credits.  I hate it when they say "up to" 866 kWh/month, so let's round that down to 800 to be conservative.  Over 25 years, you should get 800*12*25=240,000 kWh out of it.  Let's say you pay $0.08/kWh, which is also fairly conservative.  You'd save $19,200.  So you're already up at least $4,000 over the cost of the system, and that's not even taking into account rising electricity costs over time.  So if you have the cash, it's probably worth it even now, but the savings isn't huge yet.

Great job, but no. During winter months, your "up to" 866 kWh/month goes down to ~100-200 kWh / month. Also, as the solar cells age, they become less efficient.

"Monthly Output based on 5 sun hours per day" - Wow, that's a LOT of sun time every day. My town has a solar array installed, and all the statistics are available publicly, so it helps quite a bit estimating my ROI. Here's the current stats on a 2 MW solar farm:



July is one of the best months, so we're just hitting 5 hours a day. But look at months like December / January. That's around an hour average of sun per day!

Your math also doesn't include maintenance of kit, replacing failing kit (sure, the equipment is under warranty, but the labor to remove it, ship it back, get a new piece isn't), any fees your carrier has associated with tying your solar system to the grid.

As opposed to a decent stock portfolio in which I have a 10% ROI per year. Hmm.

[marryXmas]

Solar energy shouldn't even be in the convo at the moment.  It is far to expensive up front and doesn't return your investment until way later of in the years.

I often see this posted on social media about how we need to convert roads to solar panels.  It is a great idea....however if we were to do that to just 1 state(larger state) the country would probably double in debt and its already hard to see us getting out of this whole(USA).  Think about redoing the world...

I thought you might find this December 2013 article interesting: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9244836/Solar_power_installation_costs_fall_through_the_floor

Particularly this part: "The cost of installing photovoltaic solar arrays has dropped to $3 per watt of electricity they produce - about the same as coal-powered plants cost to build ..."

So it sounds like the cost is quickly becoming less of a factor.

what about the amount of land required for each watt produced?  Land is not by any means cheap

[CoinsCoinsEverywhere]

its good , for everone , and you can earn on it

Actually, unless you're doing a huge amount of work yourself, you'll lose out on it. Installed solar panels are ~$3-5 dollars per watt on property you already own. ROI is over 20 years at current electricity prices (averaged out priced throughout the entire USA). Solar panels have a 15-25 year life-span, so you're playing the numbers game, and odds are against you.

Here's an example from a quick google search:

http://www.wholesalesolar.com/gridtie.html

It looks like you can buy the equipment for $1.50 to $2 per watt, depending on the size of the system, and it comes with a 25-year warranty.  I'm not sure how much installation would cost, but I have a hard time believing that it would cost more than a few thousand.  It looks like federal tax credits can also knock off up to 30% of the installation cost.  Let's say you get the system that produces about 866 kWh/month for $10,300.  Let's even say it costs as much to install as the panels cost.  So let's figure $21,000 total for the system, which would be a little less than $15,000 after tax credits.  I hate it when they say "up to" 866 kWh/month, so let's round that down to 800 to be conservative.  Over 25 years, you should get 800*12*25=240,000 kWh out of it.  Let's say you pay $0.08/kWh, which is also fairly conservative.  You'd save $19,200.  So you're already up at least $4,000 over the cost of the system, and that's not even taking into account rising electricity costs over time.  So if you have the cash, it's probably worth it even now, but the savings isn't huge yet.

Great job, but no. During winter months, your "up to" 866 kWh/month goes down to ~100-200 kWh / month. Also, as the solar cells age, they become less efficient.

"Monthly Output based on 5 sun hours per day" - Wow, that's a LOT of sun time every day. My town has a solar array installed, and all the statistics are available publicly, so it helps quite a bit estimating my ROI. Here's the current stats on a 2 MW solar farm:

July is one of the best months, so we're just hitting 5 hours a day. But look at months like December / January. That's around an hour average of sun per day!

Your math also doesn't include maintenance of kit, replacing failing kit (sure, the equipment is under warranty, but the labor to remove it, ship it back, get a new piece isn't), any fees your carrier has associated with tying your solar system to the grid.

As opposed to a decent stock portfolio in which I have a 10% ROI per year. Hmm.

Ok, fair enough.  I was hoping to compensate for overestimates by being conservative in my calculations, but apparently that's not enough.  Thanks for sharing actual stats.  It's so hard to know sometimes.  Where do you live?  And do you know how efficient those solar cells are supposed to be?

There's still a chance that a solar array would be worth it if energy prices go up significantly, but it does look like it's a gamble, at least until efficiencies double or so.