Exchange Bitcoins for Paypal safely (starting in a few days)

[Mahkul]

We are planning on adding a secure for sellers option of trading BTC for Paypal on BitMarket.eu.

After CoinPal was shut down we want to come to the rescue and provide a similar service. At the same time we want to make sure that people selling BTC in our exchange for Paypal will not be victims of chargeback.

On BitMarket.eu at the moment the Paypal option is enabled by default - anyone can buy and sell BTC for Paypal. The problem is that sellers do not want to accept Paypal because of chargebacks, so you won't see many offers selling Bitcoins for PP (or if you do - the prices are usually much higher than if wire-transfer is used). We want to fix this since we realise that many new users have no idea how to use IRC in order to trade on #otc or they have no idea how to come in possession of Liberty Reserve Dollars; or they simply don't want to pay commissions and wait for days until they get their LR USD to be able to trade on mtgox.

Mndrix (CoinPal) had a very good fraud avoidance system in place - chargebacks weren't the reason for which it was shut down. The reason was that Paypal didn't like the idea of exchanging BTC using that account. This is why we are not going to be selling BTC for Paypal ourselves, this would just get us shut down as well. Instead, we are introducing a reliable and trust-worthy platform where sellers can feel safe offering Paypal as a payment option.

Here's how we will achieve this:

The OTC rating is quite a reliable tool for verifying honesty (given that you investigate whom the positive feedback for the new users came from). On top of that we are going to introduce a verification system based on the CoinPal's one. There will also be more security checks for users who want to buy with Paypal (in some cases - address verification, ebay feedback will also be used as a reference along with some other ways of confirming identity and reliability). The option of buying with Paypal for each member will be MANUALLY enabled; we are going to dedicate our time to ensure that everyone will be checked before they can trade using Paypal (this of course only applies to buyers since the sellers will have their BTC frozen anyway).

Of course, if someone was an honest trader on CoinPal we will open your account without any problems (after consulting mndrix at YOUR request, so that he is not disclosing your private information without your consent) and you will be able to use Paypal straight away. We are, however, planning on putting a limit on every newcomer - which will be lifted once they have received 3 positive ratings from existing members. This doesn't apply to people with high positive #otc rating. By the way, the exchange will have its own feedback system.

If you are registered on bitcoinmarket.com or bitcoin-central.net and you will be able to prove your identity we will also enable the Paypal option for you. There are plenty of ways.

So, if you guys could give me any feedback regarding what else we could do before we actually start coding that would be awesome. All suggestions welcome.

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[PabloW]

Im not sure I understood everything, but Im glad someone is doing something about this matter to make it work again

I want to join bitcoinmarket, but i cant since its closed
I actually done one transaction with CoinPal so I guess he has my Paypal adress and other information. Is this enough info for me to register now?

[Mahkul]

I want to join bitcoinmarket, but i cant since its closed

As far as I remember bitcoinmarket.com is invitation only, but I could be wrong.

I actually done one transaction with CoinPal so I guess he has my Paypal adress and other information. Is this enough info for me to register now?

If only the owner of CoinPal confirms that you are okay, then yes. Please keep in mind that the system is not in place YET. Once we have it implemented, the Paypal option will be disabled for all members and we will start the verification process for whoever will be interested in buying for Paypal.

[Miner-TE]

Interesting,  Count me in (if verified) when it becomes available.  I've sold to CoinPal a few times and need this service.

Thanks.

[xarchangelzerox]

What a relief.  I only heard about bitcoin a week ago, and got very excited about it.  Still waiting on the parts to support my two new 5870s to arrive so I can really start mining.

After reading the news about coinpal just now, I was starting to get that sinking feeling of "why did you just spend 700 dollars on a spare computer you don't need" in my stomach. 

I've been mining with deepbit for about a week, most of the time, but haven't traded any of it in for USD.  How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

[Mahkul]

What a relief.  I only heard about bitcoin a week ago, and got very excited about it.  Still waiting on the parts to support my two new 5870s to arrive so I can really start mining.

After reading the news about coinpal just now, I was starting to get that sinking feeling of "why did you just spend 700 dollars on a spare computer you don't need" in my stomach. 

I've been mining with deepbit for about a week, most of the time, but haven't traded any of it in for USD.  How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

Once the service is in place (should be around Thursday), just email admin at bitmarket dot eu and we will find a way to get you verified.

[xarchangelzerox]

What a relief.  I only heard about bitcoin a week ago, and got very excited about it.  Still waiting on the parts to support my two new 5870s to arrive so I can really start mining.

After reading the news about coinpal just now, I was starting to get that sinking feeling of "why did you just spend 700 dollars on a spare computer you don't need" in my stomach. 

I've been mining with deepbit for about a week, most of the time, but haven't traded any of it in for USD.  How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

Once the service is in place (should be around Thursday), just email admin at bitmarket dot eu and we will find a way to get you verified.

Awesome!  Looking forward to seeing the progress between now and then =D

[goatpig]

How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

The verification is for people looking to buy Bitcoins with Paypal. My understanding is that, as a miner, you are looking to sell Bitcoins, so that reputation part doesn't apply to you directly.

[Mahkul]

How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

The verification is for people looking to buy Bitcoins with Paypal. My understanding is that, as a miner, you are looking to sell Bitcoins, so that reputation part doesn't apply to you directly.

You are absolutely right.

[xarchangelzerox]

How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

The verification is for people looking to buy Bitcoins with Paypal. My understanding is that, as a miner, you are looking to sell Bitcoins, so that reputation part doesn't apply to you directly.

You are absolutely right.

Ah, I see.  Well I guess that makes it even easier then 

[Mahkul]

How will I be able to establish reputation as a complete and total newcomer?

The verification is for people looking to buy Bitcoins with Paypal. My understanding is that, as a miner, you are looking to sell Bitcoins, so that reputation part doesn't apply to you directly.

You are absolutely right.

Ah, I see.  Well I guess that makes it even easier then 

The idea of the system is to make sure that you won't wake up one day to see that the buyer claimed that you never sent him the goods (coins) and your money is gone. This is what we're trying to prevent - Paypal's chargebacks from dishonest users.

[Anonymous]

I did a couple of trades with coinpal and even set up my gpg rating on there. Can you setup the same system so we can link our gpg keys to our accounts ?

[Mahkul]

I did a couple of trades with coinpal and even set up my gpg rating on there. Can you setup the same system so we can link our gpg keys to our accounts ?

This should be no problem at all, thanks for the suggestion. It may not be done as quickly as getting the general functionality started, but we will definitely add it.

[djex]

Will this service only be for people who live in Europe?

I'm from Canada. If I sold bitcoin on bitmarket.eu for Euros or any other of your supported currencies, will I be able to deposit this to my paypal account?

[goatpig]

Will this service only be for people who live in Europe?

I'm from Canada. If I sold bitcoin on bitmarket.eu for Euros or any other of your supported currencies, will I be able to deposit this to my paypal account?

If you sent euros on a Canadian dollar based account, you'll incur exchange "fees", in the form of a really poor exchange rate.

[djex]

Will this service only be for people who live in Europe?

I'm from Canada. If I sold bitcoin on bitmarket.eu for Euros or any other of your supported currencies, will I be able to deposit this to my paypal account?

If you sent euros on a Canadian dollar based account, you'll incur exchange "fees", in the form of a really poor exchange rate.

Yes that is if I sent euros. If I were to receive Euros to my Canadian account it shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think since at the moment 1.00 EUR = 1.40390 CAD.

Does this sound right or am I missing something?

[goatpig]

Will this service only be for people who live in Europe?

I'm from Canada. If I sold bitcoin on bitmarket.eu for Euros or any other of your supported currencies, will I be able to deposit this to my paypal account?

If you sent euros on a Canadian dollar based account, you'll incur exchange "fees", in the form of a really poor exchange rate.

Yes that is if I sent euros. If I were to receive Euros to my Canadian account it shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think since at the moment 1.00 EUR = 1.40390 CAD.

Does this sound right or am I missing something?

Don't quote me on that, but I think that as long as the 2 parties based on different currencies, PayPal will use their "custom" exchange rate to perform the converstion.

Here's an example with EUR/USD (that I experienced personally). EUR/USD is at 1.4817 according to google. I send 100 euros to a friend in the USA, PP uses a conversion rate of 1.4317, and my friend receives $143 instead of $148.

Next, he sends me $100, PP converts in on a 1.53 basis, i get 65.3 euros instead of 67.5

[proudhon]

I like it.

[kiba]

Methink it's only a matter of time that paypal will shut down these accounts.

[Belkaar]

Very good idea. Paypal would have to shut down every members paypal account which the won't do because many are very likely also used on ebay.

On a second note: Maybe you should allow other currencies like AUD, CAD and USD, so people from those countries can trade directly.

[dishwara]

Bitcoin is a direct threat to paypal & bitcoin will force paypal to reduce tx fees & exchange rate commission.
Until that, paypal may shut down every paypal account who sells/buys bitcoin.

[M4v3R]

Bitcoin is a direct threat to paypal & bitcoin will force paypal to reduce tx fees & exchange rate commission.
Until that, paypal may shut down every paypal account who sells/buys bitcoin.

The good thing is, Paypal can't monitor every transaction. So if there is no one single point of failure (you pay directly to other person's Paypal address), we should be fine.

[djex]

Bitcoin is a direct threat to paypal & bitcoin will force paypal to reduce tx fees & exchange rate commission.
Until that, paypal may shut down every paypal account who sells/buys bitcoin.

I don't see how it's a direct threat. Really it shouldn't be a threat at all. Paypal is just a middle man. The only problem that I can see paypal having is the fraud that may go on and or they don't want to be in the middle of something that is potentially (according to their reasoning) a legal risk.

Can you explain how this will force paypal to reduce tx fees and exchange rate commission?

[dishwara]

Bitcoin is a direct threat to paypal & bitcoin will force paypal to reduce tx fees & exchange rate commission.
Until that, paypal may shut down every paypal account who sells/buys bitcoin.

I don't see how it's a direct threat. Really it shouldn't be a threat at all. Paypal is just a middle man. The only problem that I can see paypal having is the fraud that may go on and or they don't want to be in the middle of something that is potentially (according to their reasoning) a legal risk.

Can you explain how this will force paypal to reduce tx fees and exchange rate commission?

Bitcoin is the digital currency without any middle man. So no single person in bitcoin gets everything & control everything.
Paypal started only for to send money in less time, mostly INSTANT from different countries & Bitcoin does the same, but with its own currency & no fees, no middle man & anonymous.....most important thing it is decentralized. So, it breaks the monopoly paypal has all over the world.
Which will make paypal to come down in future. 

[fetokun]

I bought 5btc from you a while ago and also 100btc from another user ( http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2467.msg85692#msg85692 ).

Is it enough to enable this functionality to me?

[monstrs]

To place an order i need atleast 10 bitcoins? To get my bitcoins in my account i need to send coins to "Your unique deposit address" ? How can i know what is exact value of 1BTC in euros? And if i place my order, is it possible to change price of BTC, because market is changing all the time?

[Mahkul]

Very good idea. Paypal would have to shut down every members paypal account which the won't do because many are very likely also used on ebay.

On a second note: Maybe you should allow other currencies like AUD, CAD and USD, so people from those countries can trade directly.

Exactly, there is no way Paypal will attempt to shut down all accounts involved in the trade within the exchange, for the simple reason they won't even know what you're sending the money for. Also, we will definitely add USD support (the only reason there is no USD support right now is that it would introduce even more misunderstandings regarding international wire-transfers). Basially we can add any Paypal currency, just you will have to keep in mind that if you select currency different than your own you will have to pay Paypal exchange fees.

[Mahkul]

To place an order i need atleast 10 bitcoins? To get my bitcoins in my account i need to send coins to "Your unique deposit address" ? How can i know what is exact value of 1BTC in euros? And if i place my order, is it possible to change price of BTC, because market is changing all the time?

That won't be the case for Paypal enabled accounts once we introduce the changes. Please bear with us for another few days.

[deadlizard]

watchlist post

I also have a few transactions on coincard. would be nice to get a rating from Mndrix. 

[Bitcoineruk]

Sounds good to me, used coinpal a fair few times since starting up last Friday, now use #Bitcoin-OTC but only for amounts up to 10 BTC (small trading   )

If this does work and doesnt have silly fees, count me in!

[Shades]

Great news (especially for us EU miners  )!

Filling the niche created by Mndrix unfortunate shutdown is another proof of BTC resilience. Good job!

[Anonymous]

Well youll have one aud paypal user so letting people buy and sell in any paypal currency would be handy.
 

[BitcoinBonus]

I hope you'll add Venmo and other payment options to your list of available methods.  This payment system has no transaction fees for the consumer, it is funded when people use it with merchants.  I was able to transfer funds from Venmo to my checking account in two days.  As I understand it, fraud issues are minimized because it expects that the exchanging parties have a social relationship with one another.  If this isn't the case, and you're not willing to build a social relationship with the people you trade with, then this may not be the solution.

Bitcoin Bonus provides 50 cents USD worth of Bitcoin when you sign up for it via the link above and fully complete your Venmo profile, and then Claim your Venmo Bonus by entering in your Venmo username.   (You'll also get a dollar from Venmo).

You also can go social with Venmo and optionally let other people know that you're buying bitcoin, helping promote it, but you can keep your transactions private as well.  Here are some more details from the Venmo website:

Venmo: The story.
Venmo was built by two friends that found it incredibly frustrating to pay each other and their friends back. I'll get you, you get me back hardly ever works out, and eventually the missing cash starts to add up. Venmo was built to solve this problem by allowing anyone with a phone to settle mini debts between friends in person, securely and instantly. But that's not all. Venmo is designed to be social and fun, just like the times you have when you're spending money with your friends. You can share your payments, keep track of the places you're spending money, and leave personal notes with every payment you make. We think of Venmo as the best payment service for friends.
What is Venmo?
Venmo is an iPhone, Android and Blackberry App that lots of people use to pay back their friends. It's completely FREE (no transaction fees) to use, and it makes splitting the bill at a restaurant between a group of friends very easy, and kind of fun. There are plenty of other ways to use Venmo, for example paying your roommates back for living expenses like rent, utilities and groceries, or getting your co-workers back for lunch runs or coffee runs. It's even useful to send friends birthday cash, or other cash gifts instead of writing checks. Whenever a friend owes you money, just use Venmo.
How big is Venmo?
Tens of thousands of people in America use Venmo, and we've processed millions of dollars in transaction volume between friends. And, we're still in Private Beta. That's awesome, right?
What are some ways to use Venmo?
The most frequent use case is splitting up a lunch or dinner bill at a restaurant with 2 or more friends. We've all been there before, one person gets the bill and has to figure out how to collect the money from everyone. Venmo saves the day in this situation. Other ways people use Venmo are to settle living expenses with roommates like rent, utilities or cable; to get money for concert tickets and trips; to pay co-workers back for coffee or lunch runs. Basically, whenever someone owes you money, or you owe someone money, just settle it up with Venmo.
How do I pay someone, where does the money come from?
It comes from a credit card or a debit card that you link to your phone number. Once you signup, we walk you through the whole process, and it only takes a couple minutes.
If I receive money, how does it get into my personal Bank Account?
That's easy. Just setup Direct Deposit when you signup, and we automatically transfer all the money you receive on Venmo into your bank account every two weeks. You can always cash out manually if you'd like, but rolling deposits make it really convenient for you to get your money. To setup Direct Deposit, you need to know your bank's routing number and account number (you can find it on a check from your bank or in your online banking portal), that's all! We designed it this way so you don't have to worry about maintaining an extra balance somewhere.
What banks does Venmo work with?
We've partnered up with all the major banks in the country.
Is Venmo Secure?
Absolutely. Venmo uses Bank Grade Security and 256-bit SSL to encrypt and transmit all of your data. Venmo is also certified by Verisign, the leading SSL provider in world.
Venmo is certified by Verisign
What makes Venmo better than other payment services?
For starters, we're completely free to use and there are no transaction fees when you make a payment.

There are lots of other reasons too:

    * Direct Deposit. You can setup direct deposit and we'll automatically transfer any money you receive on Venmo into your bank account every two weeks. You're free with your cash, and we're not trying to earn interest on the float.
    * It's Social. Venmo is the first social payments service. On Venmo, you can share select payments with your friends on Venmo, Facebook, Twitter, and Foursquare as a way of telling them what you're up to. This is a fun way to engage with Venmo, and you get to leave comments on shared payments. Don't worry, only friends you explicitly accept can see the payments you share.
    * Realtime Statistics. We give you detailed statistics after every payment you make. This keeps you informed about how much you're spending with your friends, and if you add your location to a payment, we tell you how many times you've visited that place and how much you're spending there.
    * Your Phone Comes First. You can do everything on your phone. That includes signing up, adding your credit card and making your first payment. This makes it so easy to get your friends to use Venmo with you, especially when your hanging out with each other!

How much does it cost to use Venmo?
It's completely free to use Venmo. There are no fees to signup, and there are no transaction fees.
If it's free to use, how does Venmo make money?
While Venmo does not work with any service providers, or businesses right now, it has plans to work with them in the future. There will be standard transaction fees charged to any business that uses Venmo. This will allow Venmo to remain free for friends to use with each other.
How do I get an invite to Venmo?
Just join our waiting list, or ask a friend that's on there to invite you. We're constantly sending out invitations to new users.
I have more questions
Not a problem! Just use our contact form to get in touch with us, and we'll be happy to answer any of your questions.

[Mahkul]

I hope you'll add Venmo and other payment options to your list of available methods.  This payment system has no transaction fees for the consumer, it is funded when people use it with merchants.  I was able to transfer funds from Venmo to my checking account in two days.  As I understand it, fraud issues are minimized because it expects that the exchanging parties have a social relationship with one another.  If this isn't the case, and you're not willing to build a social relationship with the people you trade with, then this may not be the solution.

Our buyers and sellers will be people completely unknown to each other, so this may be problematic (unless verified members would like to add this option as well, then why not).

[SmokeTooMuch]

It seems to me that PayPal only adds another point of tracking trading history to the whole system.
SEPA transaction work very well and fast and there are only trusted parties involved (if I won't trust my bank to a certain degree, I wouldn't store money there).
PayPal is known to freeze accounts and also charges fees.

A few months ago I thought PayPal support was really a good idea, but now I think Bitcoin has come to a stage where we aren't dependent on third-party payment processors anymore.

I can't even see the advantages of PayPal. The only thing the bring is transaction speed.
But this speed comes with the whole load of PayPal's negative aspects (giving control of the money to another party aka freezing risk, decrease of money value (fees), risk of chargeback (fraud)).

[REYTRON]

How would one go to prove that they are a member of bitcoinmarket.com? I would like to join your site once PayPal has been implemented!

[Mahkul]

How would one go to prove that they are a member of bitcoinmarket.com? I would like to join your site once PayPal has been implemented!

Very easily: If you email me from your email address that you have registered there with then I will check your history with David from BitcoinMarket.com and that's it.

[Darth Severus]

@BitcoinBonus
Venmo seems to have a withdrawal limit of 500$ per month.

[bitcredit]

Why not just come up with a system that accepts credit cards?

I personally hate PayPal, even though I happily used it with CoinPal. If there were a reasonable credit card alternative, I would happily use it instead of PayPal. You'd save money on interchange fees, since PayPal wouldn't be taking its cut. Sure the risk of charge backs would probably be a bit higher, but measures could be taken to reduce fraud. There'd be no risk of PayPal cutting us off again. Best of all, we could finally stick it to PayPal.

[PLATO]

Awesome! I posted some thoughts earlier tonight on what we should do to make sure all such exchanges can talk to each other, see the thread here: http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=7096

[Miner-TE]

Any status or updates?

[matteumayo]

Is it possible for me to sell some BTC for USD?


I really want another automated paypal selling service, and this looks like the first one.

[M4v3R]

The hardest thing in making this work is thinking out every details. What we learned from current implementation of BitMarket.eu is that many buyers are not serious, they change their mind when it comes to paying etc. We want to prevent this behaviour in next version of our site. We also want to make transferring money as easy for both parties as possible.

That said, the progress is being done and new site should be ready this week. Stay tuned (and follow us on Twitter for fastest updates)!

[m4rkiz]

do you plan to implement a way to put buy order that will be similar to mt gox dark pool (not the dark part, just other functionality)?

ie. i want to buy 100 btc but there is 10 different sellers, and each have only 10 btc so even if i decide to match the price i still have to process 10 different payments if i want to buy, instead i would like specify minimum buy limit ie. 50 - that way my buy order would require just 1 or 2 payments

[m4rkiz]

What we learned from current implementation of BitMarket.eu is that many buyers are not serious, they change their mind when it comes to paying etc. We want to prevent this behaviour in next version of our site.

1. seller is creating sell order
2. buyer is creating buy order

unless there is no automatic system to match those, seller has some advantage as he needs to confirm transaction manually (not sure how your site works but if you allowing cancelling it instead - it is not fair from buyer point of view) and can choose not to complete transaction, and just bump price instead

and if he decide to accept transaction buyer have no choice but pay (or risk ban from site)

[salparadise]

As you can see from my earlier thread today, I am very new to this all...

I really want a way of buying bitcoins, preferably using PayPal. Will your new site be able to do this? Please be sympathetic to me when explaining all this- I am very new to it all as I've said!

If this new site can't allow me to do that, what alternatives are out there for me?

Many thanks!

[M4v3R]

do you plan to implement a way to put buy order that will be similar to mt gox dark pool (not the dark part, just other functionality)?

ie. i want to buy 100 btc but there is 10 different sellers, and each have only 10 btc so even if i decide to match the price i still have to process 10 different payments if i want to buy, instead i would like specify minimum buy limit ie. 50 - that way my buy order would require just 1 or 2 payments

We may switch to a system where offers are not matched automatically, but you just pick which ones you want to fulfill. But we still need to think about how exactly it should work for people to be pleased with it.

[BitLex]

hi there,
i just registered an account and noticed one little thingie in the verification process.

first you say "..you have to clearsign the message below..",
but the box to paste the message in says "Paste encrypted message here".

isn't it either encrypted, or clearsigned? 

[M4v3R]

It's both essentially, though one would argue that clearsign != encrypt in all cases. I'll change this label if it's confusing.

[Chopes]

Darn,

Looks like I missed the registration period. 

[hans1331]

Any chance to sign up in the next couple of days?

[NO_SLAVE]

SCREW PAYPAL.  they WILL freeze your accounts, even randomly.  They own your money, and want you to know that.

[J180]

SCREW PAYPAL.  they WILL freeze your accounts, even randomly.  They own your money, and want you to know that.

Good thing they are going to be out of business within the next decade 

[M4v3R]

That's why I'd use Paypal only for buying/selling BTC. I'd not hold my money there.

As for status update - the registrations should be open within few days. Expect some big things along the road .

[Bind]

Bad thread title.

There is no way to exchange bitcoins for cash through paypal safely.

It's really as simple as that.

It is not just fraudulent buyers you have to worry about.

You also have to worry about paypal taking in upon themselves to cancel and reverse transactions, which is already ocurring. Heck, even if you gift it, paypal can cancel and reverse it even if the buyer doesnt want it cancelled or reversed.

Lastly, you complain about fraud, yet quite joyously and entheusiastically want to commit fraud in the process of attempting to prevent others from committing fraud, all for the sake of convenience and transaction fees you charge, and trying to talk everyone into not only doing it, but paying you to do it, and put them at a very high risk so you can get more transaction fees.

Hello?

Is there anyone home ?

[M4v3R]

@Bind: I know you have a thing or two against Paypal. It's understandable that you don't want to use it. Maybe you got scammed, maybe they froze your account or kidnapped your family. But it's your call and your decision, no need to evangelise people about it. For some, using Paypal to pay might be easiest, or even the ONLY way to buy Bitcoins. They know the risk, but they are willing to take it. What do you have against it?

[Bind]

@Bind: I know you have a thing or two against Paypal. It's understandable that you don't want to use it. Maybe you got scammed, maybe they froze your account or kidnapped your family. But it's your call and your decision, no need to evangelise people about it. For some, using Paypal to pay might be easiest, or even the ONLY way to buy Bitcoins. They know the risk, but they are willing to take it. What do you have against it?

I have absolutely nothing against paypal.

I use it daily .. just not for as payment for selling bitcoins for the reasons mentioned in my previous posts.

I did not get scammed.

They did not freeze my account.

They did not kidnap your family.

There is a need to educate the people about the risks of paypal, and I will continue to do so on every forum and every thread is see it appear on in relation to buying/selling any ecurrency.

There is no safe bitcoins for paypal transactions. There very well may have been successful ones, but no safe ones.

If they choose to use it after knowing the risks, then of course it is their prerogative.