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Author Topic: How To Stop Bitcoin Banking; Give It A BitLicense In New York #bitcoinbanks  (Read 1437 times)
Coinbuddy (OP)
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July 20, 2014, 08:32:32 AM
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New York State has decided to issue a regulatory structure for Bitcoin, meaning that businesses in that State can be sure of what they can and cannot do. This is excellent news of course, the regulatory uncertainty is most certainly holding back development of all cryptocurrencies. However, there is one tiny problem with the regulations as they’ve proposed them. They actually make running a Bitcoin bank illegal. Which, if you’re trying to encourage people to develop new banks is probably something of a bad idea.

There’s much to like about the initiative. I’m particularly taken by the way in which Ben Lawsky, of the NYDFS, took to the Reddit Bitcoin forum to ask the Redditors what they thought of the regulations proposed. That’s real engagement with the user base going on.

The aim is to develop “BitLicenses” which detail what a company may do with Bitcoin, what it must do, capital adequacy ratios and so on. All useful stuff during the development of part of the financial system. However, as the excellent Matt Levine points out there is a problem with part of the suggestions:

What this means is that if you’re in the business of bitcoinery — “receiving Virtual Currency for transmission or transmitting the same; securing, storing, holding, or maintaining custody or control of Virtual Currency on behalf of others; buying and selling Virtual Currency as a customer business; performing retail conversion service … or controlling, administering, or issuing a Virtual Currency” — and you owe bitcoins to customers, then you need to have 100 percent of those bitcoins sitting in your bitcoin vault. And you can’t borrow against them. And you need to have some extra cash in dollars, just in case (in case what?). And you need to have however much capital Ben Lawsky decides you should have.

That is, to be a Bitcoin bank you cannot actually be a bank.

To explain: we can have many different definitions of a bank, the financial world one, the regulatory one (Goldman Sachs was not before 2008 even though everyone knew, other than the regulators, that it was, sorta , a bank) but the one I want to use here uses the economist’s one. As Brad Delong has been saying for years now, banks borrow short and lend long. That’s just what banks do: if you borrow short and lend long you’re a bank, if you don’t, you’re not. If you’re not borrowing short and lending long you may be doing many things but you’re not doing banking.

Another name for this is maturity transformation, yet another is fractional reserve banking. They’re not all exactly the same things but they do all come as a package. And what the proposed NY BitLicense rules out is the possibility of doing that fractional reserve banking. It allows only 100% reserve banking. And that in turn rules out maturity transformation: which means that you’re not borrowing short and lending long. You are, therefore, by this definition of banking, not allowed to be a Bitcoin bank.

As Levine goes on to point out you can, if you are already a bank (in the regulatory sense) extend your banking activities to Bitcoin and sidestep those regulations. But only if you are already a bank. Thus you cannot set up a Bitcoin bank with just a BitLicense, you need to go to all of the expense of a full NY State banking license. Which probably isn’t the way to encourage entrepreneurial start ups in the cryptocurrency world really.

SOURCE "http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/07/19/how-to-stop-bitcoin-banking-give-it-a-bitlicense-in-new-york/"
Catmoonglow
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July 20, 2014, 04:14:17 PM
 #2

Right conclusion for the absolute wrong reason
doggieTattoo
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July 20, 2014, 05:26:14 PM
 #3

Traditional banks today must meet strict capital and lending standards. They are also insured by the FDIC so there is basically no risk to deposit holders.

There is no such insurance fund for bitcoin related banks making anyone who deposits bitcoin at a exchange that operates on a fractional reserve system to be at risk.

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annoyingorange
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July 20, 2014, 08:07:37 PM
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Read the Forbes article. The BitLicense requires Bitcoin banks to have 100% reserves ... just like Murray Rothbard and Hans Hoppe have called for.

It's a gol' darn anarcho-libertarian godsend!!!
oceans
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July 20, 2014, 08:13:42 PM
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I think one of the biggest problems with insuring bitcoin, is that there cant be a charge back. If money is stolen or lost, the bank wouldn't be able to reverse it and get it back.
If the same were for fiat, the insurance would go through the ceiling with how much money is just lost and gone. There are so many things that would have to be taken into account, and I think it will be at least a year or more they figure out how to "control" coins, if its even possible.    
ipnone5only
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July 21, 2014, 05:54:03 AM
 #6

Read the Forbes article. The BitLicense requires Bitcoin banks to have 100% reserves ... just like Murray Rothbard and Hans Hoppe have called for.

It's a gol' darn anarcho-libertarian godsend!!!

I don't think that's the part people are annoyed about. I think it's about:

1)Identifying customers to prevent the bullshit crime of money laundering.

2)Demanding that businesses outside of NY prevent NY customers from accessing or using their services like it's their fucking job to perform free police work for NY.

3)Pay a bunch of money to get a bitlicense

4)Stifle things which clearly aren't (fiat <-> BTC) exchanges: hot wallets, mining pools. BTC->BTC doesn't need reserve proofs because the blockchain is the proof.
CokeCoin
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July 21, 2014, 06:21:31 AM
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Right conclusion for the absolute wrong reason

Exactly what I was thinking--so the writer of this article read the regulations and thinks the worst part about them is that bitcoin exchanges will not be able to do fractional reserve banking? Are you kidding? That is like the one part that makes sense. C'mon. Does this guy know anything about bitcoin? I mean we can't know for sure--but fractional reserve banking--may have contributed to enabling the whole Mt. Gox fiasco in the first place.

CokeCoin
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July 21, 2014, 06:23:54 AM
 #8

Right conclusion for the absolute wrong reason

Point out the fact that you need to register in order to create an alt-coin (which is really just communication protocol that uses math/cryptography). As if they have the right to demand me to get their permission to copy and paste the code of bitcoin with a change or two and post it online. Ridiculous. Point out the fact that third party wallet providers such as Blockchain, Mycelium, or Green Address would potentially have to identify customers and attempt to keep records of incoming/outgoing transactions. Point out that creating tip bots so people can send around a few bits to each other potentially requires registration.

CokeCoin
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July 21, 2014, 06:25:57 AM
 #9

Right conclusion for the absolute wrong reason

The whole "bitcoin exchanges are kind of like banks" notion came about simply because it is another party storing your money temporarily, to suggest that we would want (or that these exchanges aim to) operate like traditional banks would be utterly ridiculous and against the whole point of bitcoin. What I want from an exchange is simply to be able to buy some bitcoin, maybe trade a bit, and know that they will have it on hand for when I will inevitably will withdraw it (ideally using cryptographic solvency methods). I don't want any interest in exchange for them leveraging my money out many times over and gambling in a giant casino. Give me an f'n break.

GTA
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July 21, 2014, 07:09:57 AM
 #10

Right conclusion for the absolute wrong reason

Exactly what I was thinking--so the writer of this article read the regulations and thinks the worst part about them is that bitcoin exchanges will not be able to do fractional reserve banking? Are you kidding? That is like the one part that makes sense. C'mon. Does this guy know anything about bitcoin? I mean we can't know for sure--but fractional reserve banking--may have contributed to enabling the whole Mt. Gox fiasco in the first place.

Point out the fact that you need to register in order to create an alt-coin (which is really just communication protocol that uses math/cryptography). As if they have the right to demand me to get their permission to copy and paste the code of bitcoin with a change or two and post it online. Ridiculous. Point out the fact that third party wallet providers such as Blockchain, Mycelium, or Green Address would potentially have to identify customers and attempt to keep records of incoming/outgoing transactions. Point out that creating tip bots so people can send around a few bits to each other potentially requires registration.

The whole "bitcoin exchanges are kind of like banks" notion came about simply because it is another party storing your money temporarily, to suggest that we would want (or that these exchanges aim to) operate like traditional banks would be utterly ridiculous and against the whole point of bitcoin. What I want from an exchange is simply to be able to buy some bitcoin, maybe trade a bit, and know that they will have it on hand for when I will inevitably will withdraw it (ideally using cryptographic solvency methods). I don't want any interest in exchange for them leveraging my money out many times over and gambling in a giant casino. Give me an f'n break.


Right... we don't want exchanges that use fractional reserve methods, but why do we explicitly (through regulation and force) want to exclude BTC backed banks that use fractional reserve methods?

Reserves and account holdings can be cryptographically proven with BTC... this actually gives a lot of room for fair fractional reserve banking methods... and in the case of exchanges we can prove that they aren't using them at all.
GTA
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July 21, 2014, 07:11:24 AM
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Exactly what I was thinking--so the writer of this article read the regulations and thinks the worst part about them is that bitcoin exchanges will not be able to do fractional reserve banking? Are you kidding? That is like the one part that makes sense. C'mon. Does this guy know anything about bitcoin? I mean we can't know for sure--but fractional reserve banking--may have contributed to enabling the whole Mt. Gox fiasco in the first place.

Point out the fact that you need to register in order to create an alt-coin (which is really just communication protocol that uses math/cryptography). As if they have the right to demand me to get their permission to copy and paste the code of bitcoin with a change or two and post it online. Ridiculous. Point out the fact that third party wallet providers such as Blockchain, Mycelium, or Green Address would potentially have to identify customers and attempt to keep records of incoming/outgoing transactions. Point out that creating tip bots so people can send around a few bits to each other potentially requires registration.

The whole "bitcoin exchanges are kind of like banks" notion came about simply because it is another party storing your money temporarily, to suggest that we would want (or that these exchanges aim to) operate like traditional banks would be utterly ridiculous and against the whole point of bitcoin. What I want from an exchange is simply to be able to buy some bitcoin, maybe trade a bit, and know that they will have it on hand for when I will inevitably will withdraw it (ideally using cryptographic solvency methods). I don't want any interest in exchange for them leveraging my money out many times over and gambling in a giant casino. Give me an f'n break.


Free market and cryptographic solutions should be the aim, not regulation and force.
CokeCoin
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July 21, 2014, 07:24:26 AM
 #12


Right... we don't want exchanges that use fractional reserve methods, but why do we explicitly (through regulation and force) want to exclude BTC backed banks that use fractional reserve methods?

Reserves and account holdings can be cryptographically proven with BTC... this actually gives a lot of room for fair fractional reserve banking methods... and in the case of exchanges we can prove that they aren't using them at all.

Free market and cryptographic solutions should be the aim, not regulation and force.

Well, that's true with the power of cryptographic solutions, we don't need any of this external regulation, so I guess as long as an exchange (btc bank?) disclosed the fact that they were not keeping 100% of reserves on hand in order to do x, y, and z and we could verify that through the blockchain, I guess I have no problem with that. Personally, I would only want to use exchanges that keep all customer deposits on hand down to the last satoshi, but if others want to use ones that did not and were aware of it that's fine too.

CokeCoin
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July 21, 2014, 07:26:49 AM
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Right... we don't want exchanges that use fractional reserve methods, but why do we explicitly (through regulation and force) want to exclude BTC backed banks that use fractional reserve methods?

Reserves and account holdings can be cryptographically proven with BTC... this actually gives a lot of room for fair fractional reserve banking methods... and in the case of exchanges we can prove that they aren't using them at all.

Free market and cryptographic solutions should be the aim, not regulation and force.

There has been some debate as to if any form of fractional reserve is even possible or beneficial using bitcoin--as its supply is limited, but that is a separate conversation. I guess when you say BTC backed you mean like the same way gold used to back fiat for traditional banks? But ya, we really don't need any of these regulations we can do them through the blockchain.

EnterReturn
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July 21, 2014, 07:41:46 AM
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Oh noes, you can't set up a fractional reserve scam! That was actually one of the only positive things in the regulations.
Summer,69
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July 21, 2014, 08:29:00 AM
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Do you want to ruin Bitcoin?
Because allowing fractional reserves would be a good way to ruin Bitcoin.
Too think off requiring 100% reserves as being anything other than one of the only positive requirements of these rules is nothing short of idiotic.
jc01480
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July 21, 2014, 08:41:49 AM
 #16

Cool.  They should extend 100% reserves to the banking sector as well (doh!).  Good for the goose, good for the gander.  I'm not intimidated by regulatory attempts as we all should know the driving force behind it (big banking/finance).  I've said it many times and I'll say it again: the big industry won't go down quietly without one hell of a war.  I'm still waiting to see if oil industry will jump on board with crypto.  Talk about a lot of people losing their piece of pie!
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July 21, 2014, 08:53:29 AM
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Do you want to ruin Bitcoin?
Because allowing fractional reserves would be a good way to ruin Bitcoin.
Too think off requiring 100% reserves as being anything other than one of the only positive requirements of these rules is nothing short of idiotic.

Isn't FRB with bitcoin already possible and allowed for banks today? That will not change with this ruling. If it is prohibited in NY, it is allowed somewhere in the world, anyway. As I understand it, the ruling is for exchanges that do not want to register as a full bank license.
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July 21, 2014, 09:02:36 AM
 #18

Isn't FRB with bitcoin already possible and allowed for banks today? That will not change with this ruling. If it is prohibited in NY, it is allowed somewhere in the world, anyway. As I understand it, the ruling is for exchanges that do not want to register as a full bank license.

No, because you cannot print more Bitcoins. You can only print vouchers for Bitcoins, which will clearly be worth less than a Bitcoin.
ljudotina
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July 21, 2014, 09:06:29 AM
 #19

I don't really see this as a problem. Do we really want "start up" Banks? Really....do we need one more Gox? Do we want someone without of any background managing ppl's BTC? Do we, at all, want BTC banks? Shouldn't we take care of our own BTC at first place?

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July 21, 2014, 09:17:17 AM
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Do you want to ruin Bitcoin?
Because allowing fractional reserves would be a good way to ruin Bitcoin.
Too think off requiring 100% reserves as being anything other than one of the only positive requirements of these rules is nothing short of idiotic.

People should have a choice though. I would save 90% of my BTC in a "vault bank" and would take the other 10% and put it into a fractional reserve bank account hoping the interest payments made up for the risk.
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