Should we enable the Crypti owners to trade their holdings right now?

[crypti]

Preface:
The Crypti development team was recently approached by BTER and asked to consider a proposal. As this proposal affects all of you who were involved in the pre-sale, we wanted to bring this decision to the community by way of vote. Outlined below are the details of the proposal and we would like a simple Yes or No from each of you in regards to whether you do or do not want us to go this route.

Keep in mind that we have not yet agreed to anything and simply want the opinion of the community prior to making any decision.


Details:
BTER would like to institute trading early for those who bought shares of CRSALE. As the genesis block will not be launched yet, these shares would be symbolic and you would be unable to remove them from your BTER account at this time. On launch day, at the time of genesis, BTER will distribute the shares to the accounts that hold CRX (temporary placeholder until final ticker is chosen) in the amount held on that date.

All BTER users will be issued shares, in the BTER system, equal to their percentage stake + any bonus in the Crypti pre-sale. All bonuses will be taken into account at the time of this issuance so as to not run into difficulties tracking bonuses later on after multiple transactions have occurred.

Users will be awarded CRX in their BTER account and BTER will open trading between CRX and Bitcoin shortly after the process of distribution is complete.

Users who purchased through Maxmint escrow will be given the opportunity to have their share transferred over to BTER in order to take advantage of the opportunity to sell from the opening of the market as to not miss any opportunity given to the BTER investors. This will be on a user-by-user basis and will be worked through Maxmint. He has asked that this be optional and we have agreed that it should not be mandatory. If you bought through Maxmint and do not wish to transfer to BTER, your Crypti will be distributed on the launch date of the genesis block as originally intended (with bonus intact).

Another important aspect to be aware of is that this also impacts the distribution of the BTC earned in the pre-sale. At the time of initiation of trading, BTER will transfer the BTC raised to the Xapo wallet of the Crypti Foundation (Charter to be released soon). The address of the wallet will be posted prior to the transfer as to keep the team accountable for spending. This will facilitate the teams ability to hire additional developers on an earlier timeline as well as accomplish things such as security audits and additional testing, as well as design work on promotional materials for the launch.

This request is being made due to multiple inquiries in regards to this matter and the amount of people wanting to trade their CRSALE now.

From our perspective, seeing the large number of posts in the BTT ANN thread attempting to sell CRSALE or even BTER accounts, we feel as though this might be a more safe and efficient manner to allow those who really want to sell now (and will, one way or another) the chance to do so and allow others who missed out on the pre-sale to get involved in Crypti.


Poll:
As this is a matter that involves the entire community and cannot ethically be made by us alone, we would like you to vote on the matter and voice your opinions below. Thank you!


The Crypti Development Team
Boris, A.M., SyRenity, Bitseed, GreXX

[Hueristic]

No, because it is not good for the coin to launch until the infrastructure is there. Leaving the timeline will adversely effect the long term value of the coin.

[GreXX]

Considering that most likely the majority of investors will vote in favor of this proposal...  make sure to refund all transactions past the 750 BTC before the trading starts or else you're risking this becoming a big fat mess.  I honestly believe there is NO alternative solution if you go down this route; the situation is much simpler to handle under the existing refund option.

If the consensus is "Yes, do it", then we will get the numbers again from BTER, double check everything, and when the accounts are credited, any amounts over or after the cap will be refunded at that time.

[Litoshi]

First of all:

I am assuming that BTER will be trading phantom CXX coins rather than CRSHARES.  Because if a 30% bonus CRSHARE is sold, does it now become a 20% bonus CRSHARE?  How would part of a CRSHARE be sold?  Will the bonus value change?

BTER will need to convert CRSHARES into pre-CXX coins to avoid this.


Second:

Without pre-launch trading, there will be the usual launch day problems; coin distribution not on time or coins late to some investors,  see-saw price swings, and DDOS attacks.  

With pre-launch trading of Pre-Coins, the price will go through the "growing pains" prior to launch, and a price range will have been achieved.  

Warning to traders:

The special features and properties of CXX are still speculation.  The pre-CXX price could swing wildly upon disclosure of a popular feature implementation or a deletion/delay in certain features.

 

[poornamelessme]

Although I expect many will vote for this, I personally think it'll be more trouble than it's worth.

The date for the wallet release/listing on BTER is August 10th. For the real coin.

People can't wait like 2 weeks to trade normally? I understand people have short attention spans in crypto-land, but that is sort of ridiculous.

[GreXX]

First of all:

I am assuming that BTER will be trading phantom CXX coins rather than CRSHARES.  Because if a 30% bonus CRSHARE is sold, does it now become a 20% bonus CRSHARE?  How would part of a CRSHARE be sold?  Will the bonus value change?

BTER will need to convert CRSHARES into pre-CXX coins to avoid this.


Second:

Without pre-launch trading, there will be the usual launch day problems; coin distribution not on time or coins late to some investors,  see-saw price swings, and DDOS attacks.  

With pre-launch trading of Pre-Coins, the price will go through the "growing pains" prior to launch, and a price range will have been achieved.  

Warning to traders:

The special features and properties of CXX are still speculation.  The pre-CXX price could swing wildly upon disclosure of a popular feature implementation or a deletion/delay in certain features.

 

This is correct. The CRSALE shares will be converted and you will be awarded an amount equal to what is shown on the ledger (bonus included).

You make a good point with the disclaimer and that is why we are opening this up and looking for feedback.

[Litoshi]

An article published in COINDESK could cause the price to go UP or DOWN dramatically in a short few hours.

[jari76]

I think opening up the trading on bter would bring the price to a stable point and build up a little buy/sell buffers, so the price doesnt go as  insane ah when both coin realease and market realease would occur at the same time. It would also help spread the coin to more people before launch, because of the people instantly selling their coins for little profit.

[Primitive]

i'm not following NEM very closely, but is this sort of what NEM has done with NEMstake?  

if so, has that been good or bad for NEM?

[poornamelessme]

i'm not following NEW very closely, but is this sort of what NEM has done with NEMstake? 

if so, has that been good or bad for NEM?

It'd hard to say, as NEM isn't released yet as a real coin. And not all stakeholders could even get tokens due to their original leader using sockpuppets and getting thrown off his own coin.

I'd also say the situations are very different. NEM was in dev limbo for like 6 months, and probably has more months of waiting, before its even released.

Here we are talking about a two week wait. It's like they'll spend a week deciding on allowing a presale or not, and then setting it up. And the following week they'll just release the coin normally on the exchange anyway. I don't understand how it's even worth bothering with.

[michaelb87]

YES! Workes for nem as well. Creates even better distribution, more stable price and shakes out dumpers before real launch

[SyRenity]

Here we are talking about a two week wait. It's like they'll spend a week deciding on allowing a presale or not, and then setting it up. And the following week they'll just release the coin normally on the exchange anyway. I don't understand how it's even worth bothering with.

Actually, we expect that a significant amount of Crypti buyers will voice their opinion within the next couple of days, which (in case of positive results), will enable about 2 weeks of CXX trading, with genesis block portion sent then to Bter and distributed by them via withdrawals.

[Quantumtangles]

No.

Arguments in favour of allowing early trading are as follows:

(1) Impatient and/or low attention span investors (or investors who could not afford to invest in the ipo and need their money back) should be encouraged to get out.

(2) Ridding the IPO of impatient investors will enable more rapid stabilisation of the market price and will allow the many investors who missed out on the IPO to gain a foothold.

Nevertheless, I vote no. Genesis investors knew the rules when they invested. They were put to their election and bought shares, knowing full well that the IPO shares/coins would not be publicly tradable until 10 August 2014.

I do not care whether or not impatient investors enjoy moving goalposts.

Let them wait until 10 August (by which point the devs and bter will be even better prepared for the launch of a potentially major global currency. The 'instant feedback' twitter/facebook generation could do worse than learn some patience (instead of limiting their education to learning increasingly bizarre methods of taking selfies). Make the non-sentient creatures wait. Its good for them to be deprived of instant gratification.

So I vote no...but shall willingly defer to the majority if most here present prefer to rid themselves now of the impatient so as to give new investors (who missed out on the IPO) a chance to buy shares.

[poornamelessme]

Here we are talking about a two week wait. It's like they'll spend a week deciding on allowing a presale or not, and then setting it up. And the following week they'll just release the coin normally on the exchange anyway. I don't understand how it's even worth bothering with.

Actually, we expect that a significant amount of Crypti buyers will voice their opinion within the next couple of days, which (in case of positive results), will enable about 2 weeks of CXX trading, with genesis block portion sent then to Bter and distributed by them via withdrawals.

2 weeks then. Since when did 2 weeks become such a long delay that it required changing trading plans, or offering tokens early?

Two measly weeks. NEM will be like 8-9 months of delay... Ether will be like 6 months or so. For them, I could understand it. But people can't wait two weeks here? Again, more trouble than its worth in my opinion.

[SyRenity]

Two measly weeks. NEM will be like 8-9 months of delay... Ether will be like 6 months or so. For them, I could understand it. But people can't wait two weeks here? Again, more trouble than its worth in my opinion.

While I certainly understand your concerns, both us (the launch team) and Bter were contacted multiple times with the requests to allow early trading, as there apparently quite some sellers who willing to divest early, and quite some buyers who missed the pre-sale window and now looking to purchase a stake.

Giving trading experience earlier then planned (rather then forcing people escrow and swap their Bter accounts arround) seems the most reasonable solution, hence we are looking for the community opinion on this now.

[poornamelessme]

Two measly weeks. NEM will be like 8-9 months of delay... Ether will be like 6 months or so. For them, I could understand it. But people can't wait two weeks here? Again, more trouble than its worth in my opinion.

While I certainly understand your concerns, both us (the launch team) and Bter were contacted multiple times with the requests to allow early trading, as there apparently quite some sellers who willing to divest early, and quite some buyers who missed the pre-sale window and now looking to purchase a stake.

Giving trading experience earlier then planned (rather then forcing people escrow and swap their Bter accounts arround) seems the most reasonable solution, hence we are looking for the community opinion on this now.

If they need funds so badly, can't they just sell their stakes back? I mean, wasn't that sort of the point of the entire cap limit/waiting list thing? Those on the waiting list may also feel a bit cheated, as instead of letting people sell back, you are opening up trading early.

And people will most likely vote yes, because many strangely have such short attention spans, and trade like they are sitting at a table at Vegas. But it doesn't mean it's really the right way to go with this. If a coin has rules before the IPO is run, it should use those same rules afterwards.

[Litoshi]

No.

Arguments in favour of allowing early trading are as follows:

(1) Impatient and/or low attention span investors (or investors who could not afford to invest in the ipo and need their money back) should be encouraged to get out.

(2) Ridding the IPO of impatient investors will enable more rapid stabilisation of the market price and will allow the many investors who missed out on the IPO to gain a foothold.

Nevertheless, I vote no. Genesis investors knew the rules when they invested. They were put to their election and bought shares, knowing full well that the IPO shares/coins would not be publicly tradable until 10 August 2014.

I do not care whether or not impatient investors enjoy moving goalposts.

Let them wait until 10 August (by which point the devs and bter will be even better prepared for the launch of a potentially major global currency. The 'instant feedback' twitter/facebook generation could do worse than learn some patience (instead of limiting their education to learning increasingly bizarre methods of taking selfies). Make the non-sentient creatures wait. Its good for them to be deprived of instant gratification.

So I vote no...but shall willingly defer to the majority if most here present prefer to rid themselves now of the impatient so as to give new investors (who missed out on the IPO) a chance to buy shares.

Genesis investors knew the rules when they invested. They were put to their election and bought shares, knowing full well that the IPO shares/coins would not be publicly tradable until 10 August 2014.

Yes, Quantum, but what they did not know is that the pre-sale would end after 4 or 5 days.  Ordinarily, the big money comes in at the end.  But they were encouraged to buy in early by the declining bonus awards. 

Usually a 30 day sale would have a lot of purchases in the beginning, a slow down through the middle, then a surge at the end.

But since the pre-sale ended so quickly, the investment is seen as a sleeper.  Sleeping capital does not earn a return.

[Litoshi]

Two measly weeks. NEM will be like 8-9 months of delay... Ether will be like 6 months or so. For them, I could understand it. But people can't wait two weeks here? Again, more trouble than its worth in my opinion.

While I certainly understand your concerns, both us (the launch team) and Bter were contacted multiple times with the requests to allow early trading, as there apparently quite some sellers who willing to divest early, and quite some buyers who missed the pre-sale window and now looking to purchase a stake.

Giving trading experience earlier then planned (rather then forcing people escrow and swap their Bter accounts arround) seems the most reasonable solution, hence we are looking for the community opinion on this now.

If they need funds so badly, can't they just sell their stakes back? I mean, wasn't that sort of the point of the entire cap limit/waiting list thing? Those on the waiting list may also feel a bit cheated, as instead of letting people sell back, you are opening up trading early.

And people will most likely vote yes, because many strangely have such short attention spans, and trade like they are sitting at a table at Vegas. But it doesn't mean it's really the right way to go with this. If a coin has rules before the IPO is run, it should use those same rules afterwards.

Also, a marketplace has to be flexible for changing conditions.  The 30 day investment period was ended after 5 days.  This left many out of the market. 

To buy BTC from Coinbase, there is a 4 day escrow wait from purchase to delivery.  Some investors were still in the 4 day escrow when the sale ended.

[megashira1]

So how will the bonus % work if CRSALE is being traded? The bonus % will be attached to the bter account opposed to the CRSALE stake?

[poornamelessme]

Also, a marketplace has to be flexible for changing conditions.  The 30 day investment period was ended after 5 days.  This left many out of the market.  

To buy BTC from Coinbase, there is a 4 day escrow wait from purchase to delivery.  Some investors were still in the 4 day escrow when the sale ended.

Thing is, allowing trading now doesn't mean those who missed the IPO can get in at IPO prices during an early sale. They missed it... which is sort of the point to investing in an IPO to begin with, take a risk, or wait until the coin hits the markets. There supposedly was also this cap/waiting list stuff too, so those who want out during the wait period until release can still sell back and get their funds. And those on the waiting list could still, however unlikely it may be, get coins at ipo prices.

I expect the majority of those who want this are simply impatient investors, those who want constant action, or see their btc tied up in crypti for two weeks, wanting to put it somewhere else. But they knew the rules beforehand, so I don't see how the fact that the ipo sold out quickly really changes any of those rules.... or why it should.

Again, just seems so unnecessary to me.