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[stealth923]

At any rate, let me make this as clear as mud to everyone: Monero is far from ready for general consumption. We don't need to be reminded of that, since we're the ones saying it! Of course, usability is a long-term goal, and finding a solution to "bloat" (such as it is) falls squarely in the "usability" camp.

I am glad you are grounded enough to understand the position Monero is in.

I think the pockets of the Monero community however is different as they rush to make blanket statements which infer Monero is somehow already leagues above all other coins whilst turning a blind eye to the core issues that stand in the way of adoption.

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[CoinRocka]

At any rate, let me make this as clear as mud to everyone: Monero is far from ready for general consumption. We don't need to be reminded of that, since we're the ones saying it! Of course, usability is a long-term goal, and finding a solution to "bloat" (such as it is) falls squarely in the "usability" camp.

I am glad you are grounded enough to understand the position Monero is in.

I think the pockets of the Monero community however is different as they rush to make blanket statements which infer Monero is somehow already leagues above all other coins whilst turning a blind eye to the core issues that stand in the way of adoption.

No, most "investors" simply see the Monero fundamentals are sound.

[Brilliantrocket]

At any rate, let me make this as clear as mud to everyone: Monero is far from ready for general consumption. We don't need to be reminded of that, since we're the ones saying it! Of course, usability is a long-term goal, and finding a solution to "bloat" (such as it is) falls squarely in the "usability" camp.

I am glad you are grounded enough to understand the position Monero is in.

I think the pockets of the Monero community however is different as they rush to make blanket statements which infer Monero is somehow already leagues above all other coins whilst turning a blind eye to the core issues that stand in the way of adoption.

No, most "investors" simply see the Monero fundamentals are sound.

Here, invest in my spaceship company. I have these designs I got from some other guys and 20 tons of aluminum. The foundation is all there, so my first spaceship should be good to go in no time!

[alani123]

Once again we shall thank BCX.

Seriously though, is there something special about monero? I saw Cryptonote having a bottun in their page "create your own cryptonote currency" or something similar. If monero could be attacked could it be that all other cryptonote copycats are vulnerable as well? I feel like history is repeating itself. After litecoin, we had hundreds of coins that had simply fork the code. Some of them had some "new features" but those were so badly developed that later discovered vulnerabilities forced them to hardfork. Making them go down in value and causing thousands of people to lose their money. I really hope that BCX is not joking around this time. We should maybe be thankfull about what he's doing this time. Because if you don't see what the devs of this coin are trying to do, then you might deserve to get burned. Trying to perserve a feeling of comfort and telling everyone that there's a bright future... BULLSHIT, no one is going to the moon. Especially not monero. A copycat that bases it's value to previously existing innovation. I thaught that I'd might never say that but this time I'm with BCX's side.

[stealth923]

At any rate, let me make this as clear as mud to everyone: Monero is far from ready for general consumption. We don't need to be reminded of that, since we're the ones saying it! Of course, usability is a long-term goal, and finding a solution to "bloat" (such as it is) falls squarely in the "usability" camp.

I am glad you are grounded enough to understand the position Monero is in.

I think the pockets of the Monero community however is different as they rush to make blanket statements which infer Monero is somehow already leagues above all other coins whilst turning a blind eye to the core issues that stand in the way of adoption.

No, most "investors" simply see the Monero fundamentals are sound.

No - read what was discussed above, Monero fundamentals are NOT sound with its current issues. The issues are large and at this current time put a halt to any adoption what so ever.

[ArticMine]

Monero is a different league to bloat. We are talking 100+gb in a very short timeframe. Long term 5+ years even worse

And web wallets etc promotes centralization. Everyone will depend on a minor few for the blockchain. DDoS it and watch the coin die.

The Monero bloat is fine for now when you have like 100 users. For mainstream, the cryptonote tech isn't anywhere close to being a viable solution.

You're conflating - web wallets do not promote centralisation in and of themselves. Satoshi even theorised that there would be a reduction in the number of full nodes, and for convenience sake SPV would become more popular. At any rate, even if there were only a few non-mining full nodes it would largely be irrelevant - centralisation is only a concern on the mining side, hence the 51% pool problem that has plagued Bitcoin.

I'm quite unsure as to why you're talking about "mainstream". We have alpha-level software that requires some comfort with the command line to operate. We keep saying this, but everyone keeps talking about "adoption" and "mainstream use". We're solving fundamental, extremely low-level problems, and well after they are solved we can consider "adoption" and "mainstream use".

Thankfully, Bitcoin is also pretty impossible for "mainstream" use, so it's probably a good idea to either clearly define "mainstream" or get off the merry-go-round.

At any rate, let me make this as clear as mud to everyone: Monero is far from ready for general consumption. We don't need to be reminded of that, since we're the ones saying it! Of course, usability is a long-term goal, and finding a solution to "bloat" (such as it is) falls squarely in the "usability" camp.

I am going to mention this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=709970.0 because these issues also as well apply to Monero. The difference with Bitcoin is that I am on the opposite side of the argument here. We need to reduce the growth of the blocksize, rather than allow for its increase as is the case for Bitcoin. For this reason I am making the same suggestion here as I did in the above thread; namely to in addition require an increase in difficulty in order to allow for an increase in blocksize. So an increase in blocksize or the use of the fee penalty rule is only permissible if the difficulty is higher than the median difficulty of the last N blocks.

[fluffypony]

What I find funny is that none of the MRO devs are attacking bcx the same way they did others that spoke of these issues. Is that because bcx will kill MRO dead if they do? If I were you guys I would try and figure out what Cryptsy has to do with bcx sudden interest in Monero. I find that to be an interesting connection, anyone else?

We've already pointed out that the difficulty flaw he found is incorrect (until demonstrably proven otherwise), and the blockchain "bloat" attack is something that we are aware of and are monitoring. Any coin with sufficiently low value (ie. new) is susceptible to a bloat attack until it becomes too expensive to do so.

BCX does not have some magical power to "kill MRO dead". We have not "attacked" anyone who "spoke of these issues" in the past (although I certainly can get snappy when an argument becomes circuitous). Nobody has ever raised an issue with the difficulty retarget algorithm (because there is none that anyone has demonstrably found), and the general issue of blockchain bloat (inasmuch as the blockchain is linearly larger than Bitcoin's) has been discussed at length and various solutions / non-solutions suggested. Again: it's something we are going to solve, but it will not be something we solve right now.

I'm just curious what bcx meant by "bitjohn will determine the outcome". What does Cryptsy have to do with this and what is their connection to bcx?

I have dealt with BigVern quite a bit, and so I asked him about it directly. He spoke to BitJohn, who said the following:

[7/25/14, 12:59:43 PM] Bit John: hmmm not me lol
[7/25/14, 1:00:29 PM] Bit John: Only thing I could see being remotely close to the monreo "quote" would be me saying do to its API that being cryptonotes its harder for us to integrate like other coins
[7/25/14, 1:01:10 PM] Bit John: But I did see BCX talking about attacking it

Any conclusions drawn from this is an exercise best left to the reader.

[smooth]

You do realise that the number of transactions and users per day of Monero is MINIMAL (probably even less than 0.01% of bitcoin)

The true ratio is closer to 3%

Because it has happened so fast people do not understand how Monero has eclipsed 99% of altcoins. It is now #3 or #4 in terms of exchange volume. Blockchain volume ranking is probably comparable. http://www.coingecko.com/

[stealth923]

You do realise that the number of transactions and users per day of Monero is MINIMAL (probably even less than 0.01% of bitcoin)

The true ratio is closer to 3%

Because it has happened so fast people do not understand how Monero has eclipsed 99% of altcoins. It is now #3 or #4 in terms of exchange volume. Blockchain volume ranking is probably comparable. http://www.coingecko.com/

Exchange volume is not a blockchain transaction. The number of transactions occurring on the Monero blockchain per day compared to bitcoin is minuscule.

[fluffypony]

You do realise that the number of transactions and users per day of Monero is MINIMAL (probably even less than 0.01% of bitcoin)

The true ratio is closer to 3%

Because it has happened so fast people do not understand how Monero has eclipsed 99% of altcoins. It is now #3 or #4 in terms of exchange volume. Blockchain volume ranking is probably comparable. http://www.coingecko.com/

Exchange volume is not a blockchain transaction. The number of transactions occurring on the Monero blockchain per day compared to bitcoin is minuscule.

smooth isn't an idiot. Those are two separate points he's making and they are unrelated, you're conflating them:

1. Monero's average daily transactions are currently at around 3.3% of Bitcoin's average daily transactions.

2. Monero is consistently in the top 10 coins by exchange volume (often 3rd or 4th). CoinGecko gives a nice overview of liquidity, or Coinmarketcap -> sort by volume is also a good indicator. Exchange volume is very variable, of course.

[Brilliantrocket]

You do realise that the number of transactions and users per day of Monero is MINIMAL (probably even less than 0.01% of bitcoin)

The true ratio is closer to 3%

Because it has happened so fast people do not understand how Monero has eclipsed 99% of altcoins. It is now #3 or #4 in terms of exchange volume. Blockchain volume ranking is probably comparable. http://www.coingecko.com/

Exchange volume is not a blockchain transaction. The number of transactions occurring on the Monero blockchain per day compared to bitcoin is minuscule.

smooth isn't an idiot. Those are two separate points he's making and they are unrelated, you're conflating them:

1. Monero's average daily transactions are currently at around 3.3% of Bitcoin's average daily transactions.

2. Monero is consistently in the top 10 coins by exchange volume (often 3rd or 4th). CoinGecko gives a nice overview of liquidity, or Coinmarketcap -> sort by volume is also a good indicator. Exchange volume is very variable, of course.

300 mb a day at Bitcoin volumes? Holy shit, it's worse than I thought. I'd say the project's success or failure hinges nearly 100% on your ability to reduce bloat. Anonymint said it won't happen, but it'll be fun to watch you guys squirm and writhe as you try. I'm still open to making an investment in Monero, it all depends on whether you guys are useless or not.

[fluffypony]

300 mb a day at Bitcoin volumes? Holy shit, it's worse than I thought. I'd say the project's success or failure hinges nearly 100% on your ability to reduce bloat. Anonymint said it won't happen, but it'll be fun to watch you guys squirm and writhe as you try. I'm still open to making an investment in Monero, it all depends on whether you guys are useless or not.

We aren't squirming or writhing, we're merely rolling our eyes at those constantly returning to eat their own vomit on the topic. It gets tiresome.

It took Bitcoin 5.5 years to reach those transaction volumes, and loads of merchant adoption.

I'm confident we will have solved the "problem", or it will be shown to be a non-issue, long before we reach the middle of 2019. Until then, there are far more important things for us to focus on than rush out a compromise that "solves" the issue but has the nasty side-effect of compromising privacy. If we do solve this it will be a collective effort from us and some terribly clever people, and it will be a verifiably cryptographically sound method that does not reduce the anonymity set.

[canonsburg]

The hashrate of Monero did *mysteriously* rise from the mid 14MH/s to over 19MH/s and the price didn't even rise to warrant the rise in hashrate so someone out there must be doing something.

[fluffypony]

The hashrate of Monero did *mysteriously* rise from the mid 14MH/s to over 19MH/s and the price didn't even rise to warrant the rise in hashrate so someone out there must be doing something.

That happened 2 weeks ago. Could've been a botnet, but there were improvements to tsiv's ccminer fork + fixes to Claymore's AMD miner etc. that could equally be responsible for it. A "mysterious" rise would be for it to double up in an hour.

[smooth]

The hashrate of Monero did *mysteriously* rise from the mid 14MH/s to over 19MH/s and the price didn't even rise to warrant the rise in hashrate so someone out there must be doing something.

That happened 2 weeks ago. Could've been a botnet, but there were improvements to tsiv's ccminer fork + fixes to Claymore's AMD miner etc. that could equally be responsible for it. A "mysterious" rise would be for it to double up in an hour.

Some of the changes in the reported hash rate are just random. The hash rate can't be measured directly it is just inferred from how fast the network is solving blocks, but that is a random process with significant estimation error.

[smooth]

You do realise that the number of transactions and users per day of Monero is MINIMAL (probably even less than 0.01% of bitcoin)

The true ratio is closer to 3%

Because it has happened so fast people do not understand how Monero has eclipsed 99% of altcoins. It is now #3 or #4 in terms of exchange volume. Blockchain volume ranking is probably comparable. http://www.coingecko.com/

Exchange volume is not a blockchain transaction. The number of transactions occurring on the Monero blockchain per day compared to bitcoin is minuscule.

smooth isn't an idiot. Those are two separate points he's making and they are unrelated, you're conflating them:

1. Monero's average daily transactions are currently at around 3.3% of Bitcoin's average daily transactions.

2. Monero is consistently in the top 10 coins by exchange volume (often 3rd or 4th). CoinGecko gives a nice overview of liquidity, or Coinmarketcap -> sort by volume is also a good indicator. Exchange volume is very variable, of course.

More specifically I was making the point that the growth in activity (both exchange and blockchain) has been extremely fast, perhaps unprecedented.

The easy assumption to make is that because Monero is only 3 months old, the volume of transactions on the blockchain must be miniscule. That is false, if you agree that 3% of bitcoin is not minuscule of course (it is certianly not 0.01% of bitcoin). Arguably bitcoin volumes are minuscule compared to Visa or bank transfers.

This false assumption matters a lot because people look at the blockchain size or growth rate and infer that blockchain bloat relative to bitcoin is orders of magnitude when in fact it is a small (<10) constant factor.

[Joshuar]

Let me clarify a few things since I consider myself an expert on BCX LOL.

1) I never called or have I determined Monero to be a shitcoin. I clearly stated in my first post in another thread "that I had a few PM's asking me to *look at a shitcoin called Monero*"

2) I have never said I was going to attack it.

3) I am clearly in an evaluation mode and I am adding machines and rigs to it daily.

4) I am actually working on a solution to the diff exploit on my own as I do not play well in groups. I will share the code with TT if I am successful. The bloat issue is trivial, the devs could fix it tomorrow if they wanted.

5) Fluffy is correct, I do not possess magical powers. What I do posses is the ability conjecture up staggering amounts of cpu hashrate on demand, very large amounts of gpu and asic hashrates (I realize asics are useless here), a large network of like minded people, skill and more btc than I will ever spend as I was cpu mining Bitcoin pre GPU mining. This gives me the ability to bring enormous amounts of hash rate or traffic to any chain, pool or site I choose to. Some incorrectly accuse me of doing so maliciously

6) Like a lot of the devs I have proven wrong time and time over, Fluffy and TT are incorrect about needing 51% to TW a chain. I nailed Auroracoin to the cross with ~20%. At this moment in time it would take me ~22 days to do so. It took me 12 days for AUR.

7) I think MRO has potential and more importantly Bitjohn has indicated to me that Cryptsy will implement MRO as soon as the technical situation is worked out. So mine and buy up people Crypto is evolving.


Hope that answers any questions.


~BCX~

Thank you for clarifying. Most people on this forum hate change, especially when that change, Monero, brings something truly, a fair emission rate/distribution, and promising technology that outbeats the coin they're holding.

[Johnny Mnemonic]

You do realise that the number of transactions and users per day of Monero is MINIMAL (probably even less than 0.01% of bitcoin)

I'll assume you're just misinformed and not maliciously spreading false information.

[dewdeded]

It's pretty funny that some people really think "BCX" is some kind of expert or an respected authority, like Maxwell, Back or Atlas.

He is just an random poster with an abnormal bad history of failures during his "audit work" or whatever he is calling this scammy act, he is performing on this board. Just click on his profiles and open the threads he started. His success speaks for itself. ;)

It's well established, that he is an (advanced) con artist and not IT or crypto-currency expert of any kind. He earns from blackmailing projects (coins, exchanges and pools) and socializing donations.

[Skinnkavaj]

BCX replied he liked the coin and will mine it. I like that. He does in fact have a lot of hashing power I am sure.