Israel's future war: War of God and Magog

[zolace]

I'm not so sure all this pans out with the current countries we see. In the book of Daniel the vision he saw in the kings dream was made up of 4 powers reinstating themselves in our day. Babylon, persia, greece and Rome. The last one Rome which was made of iron, and feet of iron and clay, would be a world empire made up of secular and religious power which would be the beast and false prophet lead by the anti-christ given power from satan
This evil trinity so to speak makes war with the saints. Powers from the north i believe is symbolic to represent evil, such an example would be when the south of Israel was the last standing, as northern part drifted toward idolatry

There's others examples of this north and south representing good and evil that i can't remember right now, if i have time i'll look for it  

That is interesting - are you saying that conflicts with what Joel is suggesting above?

In the sense that he believes Israel becoming a nation plays a major role then yes in conflicts. The bible says when the fig tree is in leave, however they are not bearing fruits, or believing in Jesus. They are just a sign the time is near, because Jews have a homeland thats all, but they play no major role.

God's church is still scattered with believers all over, not the churches themselves so much because which denominations or sect leads? I think the larger churches, in particular the papacy, is where the false prophet may arise. This coupled with an alliance with other large denominations and political powers

Where does Daniel say that Israel does not play a major role as suggested by his fellow prophet Ezekiel?

I'm not an expert i just mix and compare what i read and understand. The term "Israel" has been defined in different ways not just as a nation, same as the word Jew. So just looking at this from the point that the nation of Israel will turn to Jesus as a national policy seems far fetched. They seem a combination of secular as well as old school. On the other hand Paul speaks about the Jews being grafted back into the tree or body, with the Gentiles and even warned the Gentiles the Jews could be favored again. I'm rarely dogmatic when i discuss scripture 

[Rigon]

I'm not so sure all this pans out with the current countries we see. In the book of Daniel the vision he saw in the kings dream was made up of 4 powers reinstating themselves in our day. Babylon, persia, greece and Rome. The last one Rome which was made of iron, and feet of iron and clay, would be a world empire made up of secular and religious power which would be the beast and false prophet lead by the anti-christ given power from satan
This evil trinity so to speak makes war with the saints. Powers from the north i believe is symbolic to represent evil, such an example would be when the south of Israel was the last standing, as northern part drifted toward idolatry

There's others examples of this north and south representing good and evil that i can't remember right now, if i have time i'll look for it  

That is interesting - are you saying that conflicts with what Joel is suggesting above?

In the sense that he believes Israel becoming a nation plays a major role then yes in conflicts. The bible says when the fig tree is in leave, however they are not bearing fruits, or believing in Jesus. They are just a sign the time is near, because Jews have a homeland thats all, but they play no major role.

God's church is still scattered with believers all over, not the churches themselves so much because which denominations or sect leads? I think the larger churches, in particular the papacy, is where the false prophet may arise. This coupled with an alliance with other large denominations and political powers

Where does Daniel say that Israel does not play a major role as suggested by his fellow prophet Ezekiel?

I'm not an expert i just mix and compare what i read and understand. The term "Israel" has been defined in different ways not just as a nation, same as the word Jew. So just looking at this from the point that the nation of Israel will turn to Jesus as a national policy seems far fetched. They seem a combination of secular as well as old school. On the other hand Paul speaks about the Jews being grafted back into the tree or body, with the Gentiles and even warned the Gentiles the Jews could be favored again. I'm rarely dogmatic when i discuss scripture 

Ah, ok.  Yeah, you are right, one does have to look at the context when the word 'Israel' appears - true for anything, really, though alot of things will mean what they say when isolated.

But, context does add flavor - sometimes alot - to a passage (and not just scripture).

[Rigon]

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[zolace]

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

just wonder which passage, but it still could mean something other then a blood jew

Romans 2-25-29
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Some speak about a new Jerusalem

[Rigon]

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

just wonder which passage, but it still could mean something other then a blood jew

Romans 2-25-29
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Some speak about a new Jerusalem

Romans is referring to a believer; Zachariah is referring to someone who has not accepted the Messiah.

In this case, Jews who have not (many have of course, even in Israel, but still quite the majority).

On top of it, since even Paul refers to physical Jews in his writings, and thus context helps, the Zach passage also refers to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the House of David. Zach is referring to the Jews themselves.

[zolace]

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

An interesting passage discussing the repentance of the Jews as they look upon Him whom they have pierced.

just wonder which passage, but it still could mean something other then a blood jew

Romans 2-25-29
25For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Some speak about a new Jerusalem

Romans is referring to a believer; Zachariah is referring to someone who has not accepted the Messiah.

In this case, Jews who have not (many have of course, even in Israel, but still quite the majority).

On top of it, since even Paul refers to physical Jews in his writings, and thus context helps, the Zach passage also refers to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the House of David. Zach is referring to the Jews themselves.

I'm not real familiar with Zechariah, but i take it you think Israel will turn to Christ as a nation? Some say a new temple will be built but thats from Old Testament

[Rigon]

As a nation?  I do.  At least, Zachariah is talking about the Jews turning to Him who they have pierced and mourning over it.

The temple - I dont remember if it is mentioned in Revelation.  But, you see in the epistles the writers referring to the Old Testament - they accepted it as the Word of God, as did Jesus.  So (and I am not familiar with the passages), if it does refer to a rebuilt temple in the future, I would not discount it simply because it is in the OT

[umair127]

As a nation?  I do.  At least, Zachariah is talking about the Jews turning to Him who they have pierced and mourning over it.

The temple - I dont remember if it is mentioned in Revelation.  But, you see in the epistles the writers referring to the Old Testament - they accepted it as the Word of God, as did Jesus.  So (and I am not familiar with the passages), if it does refer to a rebuilt temple in the future, I would not discount it simply because it is in the OT

Of course you don't "remember". It was never a part of your religious brainwashing Sunday School class.

Piefoot is correct in mentioning  that the Messiah will rebuild the Temple. That's Jewish tradition.

 Is just making this up as he goes according to whatever Christian bullshit artists he happens to be listening to at the moment.

[umair127]

Zolace do understand that Rigon's version of Gog & MaGog carries as much intellectual weight does Winnie The Pooh getting his nose unstuck from  of a honey jar.

[zolace]

I guess i lean more toward a spiritual Israel, but i don't think i have much more to add right now. I never heard of Joel Rosenberg but have heard this idea. I don't think its wrong to study from people or denominations who have been down the roads one is currently driving on, just don't listen to one only, and stay objective seeking your own answers
I'll probably visit this forum more often 

[umair127]

That's the thing about obscure, unspecific, nonsensical "prophesy", you can make it say anything you'd like.

[Rigon]

That is not unusual (spiritual Israel), both in prophecy and application.  I think (I am not sure though) that it also somehow applies to how some Christians view the US (how they approach the Old Testament).


As far as Joel Rosenberg, he has written some interesting and popular fiction - fiction that seems even some political leaders have taken an interest in (it being fiction based on biblical prophesy).  But, it is only recently that I am reading a non fiction book by him, a quite interesting one, on today's Moslems, and the struggles going on between three main groups.

[Rigon]

That's the thing about obscure, unspecific, nonsensical "prophesy", you can make it say anything you'd like.

That is what is so interesting about several of his points - many of the prophecies he points to are far from obscure, etc.  Which is why several political leaders have found them of interest, given today's current events.

[umair127]

That's the thing about obscure, unspecific, nonsensical "prophesy", you can make it say anything you'd like.

That is what is so interesting about several of his points - many of the prophecies he points to are far from obscure, etc.  Which is why several political leaders have found them of interest, given today's current events.

Considering the same thing has been happening ever since anyone ever heard the words "Gog and MAGog" even when it was thought the Scythians (oddly enough who were Iranian!) Then the Romans; Attila the Hun; etc...etc.....  none of those came true either.

[Rigon]

The current confrontation with Iran does not seem to fit in with the scenario described by Ezekiel (though it may be one of the steps along the way).

And, on a related note, Rosenburg wrote a fctional book called the 12th Iman - some of the overlapping themes with the news lately is interesting.

[zolace]

The current confrontation with Iran does not seem to fit in with the scenario described by Ezekiel (though it may be one of the steps along the way).

And, on a related note, Rosenburg wrote a fctional book called the 12th Iman - some of the overlapping themes with the news lately is interesting.

some ideas you might want to look at as far as this thing about Israel being the center of attention in the last days. The basic idea i'm putting forth is national Israel was only one aspect of the spiritual Israel, and parallels Christ and His church as the New Testament (and in some cases the Old too) point to that as the new Israel. I'll post those parallels and give a link i found that explains further. Also if you ever did word searches such as 'fig tree' which is identified with national Israel these verses are then interesting

Matthew 21:19
And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Matthew 24:32
Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

[umair127]

Any time it looks like Israel is going to war, everyone screams "Gog & Magog!!!"

And what's so stupid is that's it usually the idiot Christians who scream the loudest, especially since they think they know more about Hebrew scripture and prophecy than the Jews do.
Pretty silly that ingorant people reading the English translation of the greek translation of the Aramaic translation of a Hebrew scripture think they know more about the Hebrew scriptures than the Hebrews themselves do.

Talk about the epitome of hubris and arrogance!!? But, that's what Sunday School will do to you. You get the quality education you pay for.

[zolace]

Notice the fig tree is withered by Christ and He says no fruit will grow on it forever, yet in the other verse its said it will be in leaf again, and then summer is near (meaning the last days)....1948 Israel becomes a nation

anyway on to those parallels of national Israel and Christ

In the Old Testament, a young man named Joseph had dreams and went into Egypt to preserve his family alive (Genesis 45:5). In the New Testament we find another Joseph, who likewise had dreams and then went to Egypt to preserve his family (Matthew 2:13).
When the young nation of Israel came out of Egypt, God called that nation "my son" in Exodus 4:22. When the baby Jesus came out of Egypt, God said, "Out of Egypt have I called my son." Matthew 2:15.
When Israel left Egypt, the people went through the Red Sea. The apostle Paul says they were "baptized unto Moses ... in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:2. Jesus was also baptized "to fulfill all righteousness," and immediately afterward God proclaimed Him, "my beloved Son" (Matthew 3:15-17).
After the Israelites went through the Red Sea, they spent 40 years in the wilderness. Immediately after His baptism, Jesus was "led up of the Spirit into the wilderness" for 40 days (Matthew 4:1, 2).
At the end of their 40-year wilderness wandering, Moses wrote the book of Deuteronomy. At the end of Jesus' 40 days in the wilderness, He resisted Satan's temptations by quoting three Scriptures-all from Deuteronomy!
In Psalm 80:8, God calls Israel a "vine" that He brought "out of Egypt." Yet Jesus later declared, "I am the true vine." John 15:1. In the Old Testament, the name "Israel" first applied to one man, to Jacob. It represented Jacob's spiritual victory over sin. Even so, in the beginning of the New Testament we discover that Jesus Christ is the new Israel who came "out of Egypt." He is the one victorious Man who overcame all sin!
http://www.bibleprophecytruth.com/topics/israel-in-prophecy.aspx

[umair127]

Ancient prophesy ?That is just a lame excuse for continued hatred and prejudice.
I don't see the Jews declaring a holy war. No one really give a flying fuck about ancient prophesy. There are people with stone-age intellect with their fingers on nuclear weapons.

[zolace]

Ancient prophesy ?That is just a lame excuse for continued hatred and prejudice.
I don't see the Jews declaring a holy war. No one really give a flying fuck about ancient prophesy. There are people with stone-age intellect with their fingers on nuclear weapons.

Matthew 24:22
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Niether do I, and i agree people will use their interpretations of prophesy to not only gain political power, but guide foreign policy. Israel isn't powerful enough on their own to do that, nor do i think they want to  .