Israel's future war: War of God and Magog

[Rigon]

There is no disagreement there about the calling out of Gentiles there, but, that is not saying either that God is done with Israel as a nation in the future.  Does not say he is thus suspending the OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled.

[zolace]

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

[Rigon]

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No, I am not saying there are currently two holy nations.

The verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and 1Corinthians 15) about what is termed the rapture - when do you think this will happen?
 

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

[zolace]

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No, I am not saying there are currently two holy nations.

The verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and 1Corinthians 15) about what is termed the rapture - when do you think this will happen?
 

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

After the things talked about in Matt 24 verses 1-31, also read peter 3;10

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[Rigon]

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No, I am not saying there are currently two holy nations.

The verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and 1Corinthians 15) about what is termed the rapture - when do you think this will happen?
 

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

After the things talked about in Matt 24 verses 1-31, also read peter 3;10

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So, you believe the church will be going through the tribulation?

Anyway, either way, once gone, there is no longer the concern about two holy nations at the same time, yes?

The nation comes together, and in time, becomes spiritually alive again (culminating in Zech 14).

[zolace]

Its seems to be what Jesus is saying in Matt 24, along with other supporting verses. I think in Revelation a seal is put on Gods people before all the trouble starts, and they are protected

[noviapriani]

There isn't any evidence that there is one holy land, let alone two.

 Mesopotamia is a much better land to live in than the Levant, so is the Nile Valley, yet we are expected to believe that god gave Abraham the "promised" land.

 Both areas were leading centres of civilisation while the patch between the Jordan and the sea was often a battleground between the two superior empires.

 Egypt keeps getting bad-mouthed in the bible because the Persians influenced the records of the Talmud.

[zolace]

There can't be 2 Holy nations , either it means the new nation or the old.

I would rather stick to this theme rather then go off into old Testament prophesies about today's Israel because honestly its confusing. The thing is if its talking about future events it could mean what's talked about by John in his revelation, or things that have happened already to Israel


1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

No, I am not saying there are currently two holy nations.

The verses in 1 Thessalonians 4 (and 1Corinthians 15) about what is termed the rapture - when do you think this will happen?
 

13 But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
17 then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

After the things talked about in Matt 24 verses 1-31, also read peter 3;10

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

So, you believe the church will be going through the tribulation?

Anyway, either way, once gone, there is no longer the concern about two holy nations at the same time, yes?

The nation comes together, and in time, becomes spiritually alive again (culminating in Zech 14).

I never thought there were 2 holy city's, i pointed out there can only be one. I would make a speculative guess that Zech 14 is just a larger picture of Rev 21 in post 96, where the new city comes down to earth. I won't discount your belief about today's nation of Israel somehow playing the main role in all this. I just think there isn't enough hard evidence, just speculation. I tend to lean more toward a spiritual Israel, which is attacked by spiritual counter forces, not what we currently see with the middle east troubles. It could be a mirror reflection however to some degree

[Rigon]

Well, the promises that God has fulfilled from the OT were physically, not spiritual, regarding the nation of Israel (and the advent of the Messiah, etc), so I am not sure why it would be any different going forward.

We will have a physical fulfillment of Jesus' return, judgement, etc.

I know you mentioned you rather not involve the OT, but, that is the primary source, and it is what Revelation builds on.

[zolace]

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel  .

[Rigon]

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel  .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy?  Most of them don't even buy into it.  They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

[zolace]

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel  .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy?  Most of them don't even buy into it.  They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

Actually looking over the thread it looks like the second time i mentioned politics......oh well

[Rigon]

If you think i am dismissing the Old testament your mistaken. Your first sentence contradicts itself if you think the old and new Testaments aren't exactly what it implies, which is old things and new things. That doesn't mean they don't speak about the same principles, as the Bible puts it "a shadow of things to come". If national Israel really would be surrounded, with only God to save it at the last instance, why do politicians think, and promote, for political reasons that we should defend Israel at all costs? Why does Israel have allies even in the Arab world who would encourage (even secretly) them to do what they think must be done? I would suggest you don't let influence you any Bible study that would promote a political motive in regard to Israel  .

You are assuming politicians are doing what they are doing for reasons of prophecy?  Most of them don't even buy into it.  They all have various reasons for why they do what they do.

This thread is just about passages regarding a future Israel is yet to see - not what to do about current events that do not mirror yet the events in those passages.

For those that witness that day when God (and God alone) does deliver Israel, it will only be through willful ignorance that one refuses to acknowledge that God exists.

Actually looking over the thread it looks like the second time i mentioned politics......oh well

Ok, my apologies for misunderstanding.  I thought you were thinking my thread here had a political motive.  Which I don't think is an issue as far as the Free Speech board, but, was not my intent.

I have been asked on it in the political forum, what with the several threads on Israel (including mine) and the potential for war.  I have not advocated for war against Iran (though I think folks underestimate Iran's danger) since I don't know really what the overall outcome would be.    But, I have said my thoughts there that my support of Israel is not due to some belief in an apocolyptic end.  In fact, in the past, due to what the Bible teaches, I have stated that we probably need them more than we need us, and that God will take care of them, as you mention above.

[Rigon]

Which will involve repentance on their part - which is sorely needed.

But, here in the religious forum, I thought it be good to have such a thread for future reference, as mentioned due to when it happens, it will be a clear testimony to the Creator (and folks will still find reason to not see that - Bible has many examples of that).

But also as a reference in case the subject does come up elsewhere in the forum.

[noviapriani]

Well, the promises that God has fulfilled from the OT were physically, not spiritual, regarding the nation of Israel (and the advent of the Messiah, etc), so I am not sure why it would be any different going forward.

We will have a physical fulfillment of Jesus' return, judgement, etc.

I know you mentioned you rather not involve the OT, but, that is the primary source, and it is what Revelation builds on.

Because there were no "fulfilled prophesies" from the OT.   The OT was written AFTER ....
The OT is like "prophesying" the attack on Pearl Harbor on June 10th.....
Plus the OT is fulled with stories that never happened ( Exodus, etc...) .

[Rigon]

As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there.  Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it.  Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq.  But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

[zolace]

As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there.  Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it.  Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq.  But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

I don't see how we need them more than they need us.


Just to get a better idea, in brief do you think Israel as a nation becomes Christian? What about a new temple? and the abomination of desolation stands in the Holy place, is that the temple to be built or something else?

[Rigon]

As an aside, but as I see similarities (politically), I like the idea of both Israel and the Kurds having their own country over there.  Unfortunately, the Kurds did not get it.  Both groups seem to have a more steady influence than other nation or groups of people over there - the Kurds having a quasi type of nation till recently in that part of Iraq.  But, Iraq, Iran and Turkey do not wish to see, I think, an independent Kurdistan (?).

I don't see how we need them more than they need us.


Just to get a better idea, in brief do you think Israel as a nation becomes Christian? What about a new temple? and the abomination of desolation stands in the Holy place, is that the temple to be built or something else?

I don't mean that as it is usually meant.  As in some sort of trade agreement or military alliance.  Rather, I am referring to the below passage from Genesis 12.

I think the US has been blessed in supporting the Jews, both here in the US, and in supporting them having a nation.  Which is not to mean supporting them in whatever they do, of course.  But, we do not persecute them.  They have had freedom here that was many times missing in Europe at various times.  We have been, overall, during our history, a haven.

But God will take care of Israel with or without us.


 

1 Now Jehovah said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto the land that I will show thee:
2 and I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make they name great; and be thou a blessing;
3 and I will bless them that bless thee, and him that curseth thee will I curse: and in thee shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

[Rigon]

Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind.  The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout.  There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns.  So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes.  The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture.  So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

[zolace]

Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind.  The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout.  There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns.  So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes.  The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture.  So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

but according to dispensationalism thinking (which i take it describes you) the nation of Israel itself will become a Christian nation, and it can be something we witness. Its something that finds its way into politics because some may think they have the calling to make this come about. Therefore politicians regardless if they really believe it or not will say they do for the voting block. I'm not trying to change the subject of the thread, and whether my interpretation as opposed to yours (or what you read) is correct,or not, it could matter. It could matter because if the dispensationalists are wrong they are influencing foreign policy, and in a way that takes away the objectiveness needed when forming a foreign policy. That alone could suggest its not Biblical because it advances the idea that Israel doesn't stand alone, assuming these believers feel they have a role in helping them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism