Israel's future war: War of God and Magog

[Rigon]

Keep in mind - there are the various prophecies, and then there is stringing them together in some sort of time line.

The latter for sure is not something fixed in my mind.  The former are not always clear either, but some are very clear.

So, yes, I see a temple being rebuilt, that will be violated by someone who makes Hitler look like a boy scout.  There is the passage you mention in Matt, there is the book of Daniel, there is 2 Thessalonians, etc.

Zech 14 shows the Jews turning to Jesus as he returns.  So, if one means by Christian simply a believer in Jesus, yes.  The number grows even now, including in Israel.

But, I believe alot of the conversion happens after the rapture.  So, Gentiles and Jews beleiving in Jesus afterwards - something different.

but according to dispensationalism thinking (which i take it describes you) the nation of Israel itself will become a Christian nation, and it can be something we witness. Its something that finds its way into politics because some may think they have the calling to make this come about. Therefore politicians regardless if they really believe it or not will say they do for the voting block. I'm not trying to change the subject of the thread, and whether my interpretation as opposed to yours (or what you read) is correct,or not, it could matter. It could matter because if the dispensationalists are wrong they are influencing foreign policy, and in a way that takes away the objectiveness needed when forming a foreign policy. That alone could suggest its not Biblical because it advances the idea that Israel doesn't stand alone, assuming these believers feel they have a role in helping them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism

Nah, this is interesting, and actually related.  You bring up a legitamate concern.  The dispensational approach has its merits, and the churches I have attended have taken that approach to one degree or the other.  And yes, they so see Israel becoming a nation as part of that.

Nor would I say there is a problem with acting with a view towards prophecy - as long as the end does not justify the means.  I think what Daniel did is valid.  He sees that the number of years of exile for his people are soon to be over, and he starts praying about it.  No indication that he goes talk to the king about it.

But, Nehemiah actually gets help from the king (a latter one) in help restoring Israel.  There were objections by others regarding this, interestingly.  But both men were working with the known will of God - and, Nehemiah did not gloss over Israel's sins just because of prophecy.

(Glad I saved this part - certain set of key strokes and I lose what I am typing).

[Rigon]

So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated.  But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible.  That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed.  And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution.  If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism.  In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know.    You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

[zolace]

So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated.  But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible.  That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed.  And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution.  If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism.  In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know.    You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

Ok, i figured you were into that because it matches what you been saying, and there is different types of it. I also don't see how any Christian can be anti-semitic since its basically a Jewish text they follow

[Rigon]

So, Israel right or wrong is not advocated.  But, yes, I think there are those who seek to influence foreign policy based on the Bible.  That is not necessarily wrong, but care is needed.  And the president of the US is expected to keep his promise to upholding the Constitution.  If that conflicts with his values - well, either he fails his promise or he fails his values.

So yeah, errors can come from applying the dispensational idea without balance - but those churches that were not dispensational also fell into error due to lack of balance - anti semitism.  In the past, anyway - today, off hand I dont know.    You know - Jews as Christ killers, that type of thing.

Ok, i figured you were into that because it matches what you been saying, and there is different types of it. I also don't see how any Christian can be anti-semitic since its basically a Jewish text they follow

You would think - but unfortunately.....(we still have our sinful nature seeking to do its thing even after faith in Christ).

Of course, not everyone belong to denomination is really a Christian.  A particular problem (I think) with having a national church.  So, that might be part of where that came from.

[Rigon]

During Jesus' first coming, one of the things he rebuked was how the leaders (and thus many folk) ignored the prophecies that spoke of that time.

So, we are not expected to be ignorant of future events that are foretold.  But, there is that flip side, where too many times folks have gotten ready for his 2nd return, and/or the rapture, only to find they were looking at just one piece of the puzzle (or get discouraged and fall away).

[noviapriani]

During Jesus' first coming, one of the things he rebuked was how the leaders (and thus many folk) ignored the prophecies that spoke of that time.

So, we are not expected to be ignorant of future events that are foretold.  But, there is that flip side, where too many times folks have gotten ready for his 2nd return, and/or the rapture, only to find they were looking at just one piece of the puzzle (or get discouraged and fall away).

Because your ignorant and arrogant. You believes the Jews can't read their own scriptures, and only brainwashed Christians can understand them.
After all, Christians are the one who believe virgins can give birth to man/gods based upon their mistranslation of Hebrew scripture.

[Rigon]

I want to add something, just having had a discussion with my wife that reminded me of this.

I think dispensational thinking is the best explanation of what we read in the Bible.  But it itself, unlke the Bible, is not the Word of God.  So, what I think can and does happen sometimes is that seeing this pattern in the Bible, is to then read into the BIble certain sections that do not fit smoothly into it.

Off hand, as an example off hand, when in Rev 4, the Apostle John is told to come up here (heaven), to equate that with the rapture is stretching it.  I don't think someone would get that just reading those passages; I think the thinking is that if one comes to the conclusion that the rapture is before the tribulation, and seeing Rev 4 as the transition to the tribulation, one then assumes the satement (come up here) is referring to the rapture.

Now, that can happen with even non dispensational approaches.

[sana8410]

I want to add something, just having had a discussion with my wife that reminded me of this.

I think dispensational thinking is the best explanation of what we read in the Bible.  But it itself, unlke the Bible, is not the Word of God.  So, what I think can and does happen sometimes is that seeing this pattern in the Bible, is to then read into the BIble certain sections that do not fit smoothly into it.

Off hand, as an example off hand, when in Rev 4, the Apostle John is told to come up here (heaven), to equate that with the rapture is stretching it.  I don't think someone would get that just reading those passages; I think the thinking is that if one comes to the conclusion that the rapture is before the tribulation, and seeing Rev 4 as the transition to the tribulation, one then assumes the satement (come up here) is referring to the rapture.

Now, that can happen with even non dispensational approaches.

I don't see Rev 4 telling us anything about when the rapture is, but we do see it is when Christ returns and everything is pretty much burned up and laid to waste. Don't see anyone hanging around after that for anymore tribulation. It bold relates to the last part of your post

2 Peter 3;10;11;12;13
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

[Rigon]

To use an illustration overall -a fork may prove better than most tools for handling one's food, but, it aint gonna work for soup.

Anyway, a thought - what is the 'Word of God is the Bible, not the systems imposed on it, is my point.  Ultimately, it is best to be able to talk to the Author about it, and test it where applicable also (with future prophecy, that is harder).

Fortunately, most is rather plainly understood regardless of what approach one takes -  as far as what we need to do to be saved, and what pleases the Lord in our daily walk.

My thought for the day, LOL!

[zolace]

I want to add something, just having had a discussion with my wife that reminded me of this.

I think dispensational thinking is the best explanation of what we read in the Bible.  But it itself, unlke the Bible, is not the Word of God.  So, what I think can and does happen sometimes is that seeing this pattern in the Bible, is to then read into the BIble certain sections that do not fit smoothly into it.

Off hand, as an example off hand, when in Rev 4, the Apostle John is told to come up here (heaven), to equate that with the rapture is stretching it.  I don't think someone would get that just reading those passages; I think the thinking is that if one comes to the conclusion that the rapture is before the tribulation, and seeing Rev 4 as the transition to the tribulation, one then assumes the satement (come up here) is referring to the rapture.

Now, that can happen with even non dispensational approaches.

I don't see Rev 4 telling us anything about when the rapture is, but we do see it is when Christ returns and everything is pretty much burned up and laid to waste. Don't see anyone hanging around after that for anymore tribulation. It bold relates to the last part of your post

2 Peter 3;10;11;12;13
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

No, I agree, which is my point.

It is one thing finding a pattern in the Bible that leads to developing an explanation (convenant theology, dispensational theology, whatever),  it is another to then make that the Standard (not the Bible) to the point of reading into Scripture that theology.

Here is the verse in Rev4 that I have read that some (not all) dispensationalists say reference the rapture:

1 After these things I saw, and behold, a door opened in heaven, and the first voice that I heard, [a voice] as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter.

[Rigon]

Usual words of wisdom on the subject, LOL.


As noted, the current Iranian crisis is not what is thought to be referenced by the passage here in question.  It may an event that eventually leads up to it.

But, it is interesting that, in the book of Esther, permission was given by the Persian king to annihilate the Jews.  In his defense, he had no idea what people he had signed the death warrant for (such was the arrogance commonly found in such high office), but was done at the behest of Haman whom the Persian king had advanced, and who was extremely anti semitic.

[Rigon]

An aside to the biblical predictions regarding the future attack on Israel - but related, and given current events, worth considering.

Not familiar myself, and I hope to review the passages, but for now, it was noted in piece by Joel Rosenberg that Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 49 foretell the utter destruction and annihilation of the city of Damascus in the End Times.

[strijelac2311]

Both sides are killed in 99% of cases only innocent people, so  I do not support this war  , and all those "leader" responsible should be punished strictest possible! Because we are all brothers and sisters!

[umair127]

An aside to the biblical predictions regarding the future attack on Israel - but related, and given current events, worth considering.

Not familiar myself, and I hope to review the passages, but for now, it was noted in piece by Joel Rosenberg that Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 49 foretell the utter destruction and annihilation of the city of Damascus in the End Times.

Isaiah 17 does refer to Damascus - I don't know the context overall, don't know if Damascus has been a ruinous heap in the past.

Jeremiah 49 notes Babylon, so not sure what the writer had in mind today.

I did see an article heading about some concern that this Syrian conflict could trigger a world war - it could, but I don't think it will.  Ugly situation, and kind of a damn if you do and damn if you do not type of situation, it seems.

[Rigon]

An aside to the biblical predictions regarding the future attack on Israel - but related, and given current events, worth considering.

Not familiar myself, and I hope to review the passages, but for now, it was noted in piece by Joel Rosenberg that Isaiah 17 and Jeremiah 49 foretell the utter destruction and annihilation of the city of Damascus in the End Times.

Isaiah 17 does refer to Damascus - I don't know the context overall, don't know if Damascus has been a ruinous heap in the past.

Jeremiah 49 notes Babylon, so not sure what the writer had in mind today.

I did see an article heading about some concern that this Syrian conflict could trigger a world war - it could, but I don't think it will.  Ugly situation, and kind of a damn if you do and damn if you do not type of situation, it seems.

One thing noted about the end times referred to in the Bible is the lack of reference to the US.  The common thinking is, on this, is that it is because the US is no longer the major player during this time, that it has been.

[zolace]

Can it really be true? America in Bible prophecy - absolutely! When you think about it, it makes sense that the most powerful and influential nation on earth will play a vital role in the final stunning events of the world's closing history. But even more surprises await you as the Bible reveals how the leading nation of the world came to exist and why! Please read Revelation 13:11-18   http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.11-18     before beginning this guide, because these eight verses give a prophetic picture of America in the days ahead.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy..aspx

[Rigon]

Can it really be true? America in Bible prophecy - absolutely! When you think about it, it makes sense that the most powerful and influential nation on earth will play a vital role in the final stunning events of the world's closing history. But even more surprises await you as the Bible reveals how the leading nation of the world came to exist and why! Please read Revelation 13:11-18   http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.11-18     before beginning this guide, because these eight verses give a prophetic picture of America in the days ahead.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy..aspx

Thanks.  That is a bit long, so I will try and look after work tomorrow.As an aside (you probably know) - there are also seventh day Baptists.   Usually do not hear much about them.

[zolace]

Can it really be true? America in Bible prophecy - absolutely! When you think about it, it makes sense that the most powerful and influential nation on earth will play a vital role in the final stunning events of the world's closing history. But even more surprises await you as the Bible reveals how the leading nation of the world came to exist and why! Please read Revelation 13:11-18   http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.11-18     before beginning this guide, because these eight verses give a prophetic picture of America in the days ahead.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy..aspx

Thanks.  That is a bit long, so I will try and look after work tomorrow.As an aside (you probably know) - there are also seventh day Baptists.   Usually do not hear much about them.

I refer to them a lot, but not sure about their obsession about the Saturday Sabbath since the NT doesn't mention it much  .

[Rigon]

Can it really be true? America in Bible prophecy - absolutely! When you think about it, it makes sense that the most powerful and influential nation on earth will play a vital role in the final stunning events of the world's closing history. But even more surprises await you as the Bible reveals how the leading nation of the world came to exist and why! Please read Revelation 13:11-18   http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.11-18     before beginning this guide, because these eight verses give a prophetic picture of America in the days ahead.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy..aspx

Thanks.  That is a bit long, so I will try and look after work tomorrow.As an aside (you probably know) - there are also seventh day Baptists.   Usually do not hear much about them.

I refer to them a lot, but not sure about their obsession about the Saturday Sabbath since the NT doesn't mention it much  .

It seems a bit forced, though, it does note the downward spirituality and morality of the US, which we have been seeing.  We as a nation have turned from God.

On the Baptists - I am not referring to them overall, but sub group of Baptists that are 7th day folk.  Focusing on Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of worship (as do most Baptists).  Not sure how big a group they are.

[zolace]

Can it really be true? America in Bible prophecy - absolutely! When you think about it, it makes sense that the most powerful and influential nation on earth will play a vital role in the final stunning events of the world's closing history. But even more surprises await you as the Bible reveals how the leading nation of the world came to exist and why! Please read Revelation 13:11-18   http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Revelation%2013.11-18     before beginning this guide, because these eight verses give a prophetic picture of America in the days ahead.
http://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/study-guide/e/4998/t/the-usa-in-bible-prophecy..aspx

Thanks.  That is a bit long, so I will try and look after work tomorrow.As an aside (you probably know) - there are also seventh day Baptists.   Usually do not hear much about them.

I refer to them a lot, but not sure about their obsession about the Saturday Sabbath since the NT doesn't mention it much  .

It seems a bit forced, though, it does note the downward spirituality and morality of the US, which we have been seeing.  We as a nation have turned from God.

On the Baptists - I am not referring to them overall, but sub group of Baptists that are 7th day folk.  Focusing on Saturday instead of Sunday as the day of worship (as do most Baptists).  Not sure how big a group they are.

They back what they say with scripture, According to what they tell the US will be the power that supports the anti-Christ, but unknowingly, and it will have no more effect on what directions individuals take personally anywhere, in this or any other country. The US simply supports the first beast which comes from the papacy, and Europe, in an alliance between Church and state