Cloakcoin's PoSA is not a trustless system for anonymous transaction

[strasboug]

None of you know for certain what cloakcoin is capable of.

The devs have made promises of anonymity, not specifying the exact method in their whitepaper. I see nothing wrong with this. Maybe they are testing various methods and have not made a concrete decision. Who cares?

What's the point of this thread other than to spread your own fear, uncertainty, and doubt? Everyone in the game should know the risks of this game. But if cloak is able to deliver, then these risks are worth it. If not, the world keeps spinning. If you dont believe in cloak and youre not invested in it, you have nothing to lose so why bother making this thread?  Are you afraid of this coin destroying the coins you're invested in?

All that is described is very clear, don't dream some fictitious stuff that cloakcoin "is capable of", this does not mean anything.

The key here is there is no forceful way to keep the middle nodes to behave correctly, they can do whatever they want basically, thus easy to cheat. The system will work only if the middle nodes will corporate, but there are no reasons for them to do so, in a trustless system.

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

[illodin]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

[strasboug]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

Yes I hope so, actually I am helping them to understand here, what are the issues they need to consider

[mmortal03]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

Exactly. Have trust in them. lol.

[greenclover]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

Exactly. Have trust in them. lol.

Only promise does not mean much, many coins have promises...

[dreamhouse]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

Exactly. Have trust in them. lol.

Only promise does not mean much, many coins have promises...

Way too many promises, and too little being done

[strasboug]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

Exactly. Have trust in them. lol.

Only promise does not mean much, many coins have promises...

Way too many promises, and too little being done

That's exactly the problem

[demgains]

is this a speculative topic or factual?

[Bobsurplus]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

They did get it right.. check out the threads latest update from dagger.

[anderl]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

They did get it right.. check out the threads latest update from dagger.

[valley365]

Again, the dev of cloak does not understand what is a true trustless system.

They will get it right eventually. Have faith.

They did get it right.. check out the threads latest update from dagger.

Nope it is not a trustless system they did, it is a "co-operative"  one, if a node in the middle is a cheater, the whole system fails.

[strasboug]

Supercoin posted some info on their trustless system, I am still looking for their detailed algorithm (which they will publish in a few days). But they clearly explained multisig and why need it. This looks promising. I think multisig is the only tech can be used to support trustless system, without it the trustless system would be impossible.

[Wheatclove]

Supercoin posted some info on their trustless system, I am still looking for their detailed algorithm (which they will publish in a few days). But they clearly explained multisig and why need it. This looks promising. I think multisig is the only tech can be used to support trustless system, without it the trustless system would be impossible.

Read through the supercoin update and I have a few questions for you. What prevents the middle nodes from being bad actors?
The sender randomly selects service nodes based on a list of 30 nodes he can control in his configuration file. What prevents the sender from controlling 2 of the 3 nodes?

As far as I understand(I am not a developer, but this is an attempt to paraphrase the devs when they give us updates in IRC) In cloak, the entire blockchain is the escrow service to prevent bad actors. If coins dont make it to the reciever, the transaction doesnt occur.

[strasboug]

Supercoin posted some info on their trustless system, I am still looking for their detailed algorithm (which they will publish in a few days). But they clearly explained multisig and why need it. This looks promising. I think multisig is the only tech can be used to support trustless system, without it the trustless system would be impossible.

Read through the supercoin update and I have a few questions for you. What prevents the middle nodes from being bad actors?
The sender randomly selects service nodes based on a list of 30 nodes he can control in his configuration file. What prevents the sender from controlling 2 of the 3 nodes?

As far as I understand(I am not a developer, but this is an attempt to paraphrase the devs when they give us updates in IRC) In cloak, the entire blockchain is the escrow service to prevent bad actors. If coins dont make it to the reciever, the transaction doesnt occur.

Please read their whitepaper 2nd part published on the supercoin thread.

I think the logic is very clear: they set up an escrow, where sender will deposit his coins to send to the destination plus any fee required, then each party will deposit a fund for escrow. Then the parties will have to behave otherwise they may lose the fund in escrow.

Very nice system.

[burner2014]

Happy to see you guys discussing here.  I am fine with discussing but I am not fine with seeing only one site here. Cloak has to prove that Escrow and POSA works in V2 which is expected this week. After this they want to review everything by trustful Auditors. Thats the most they can do isn't it? After that comes the Open Source, but which is at this moment dangerous because of copying, I am right there too? Correct me if I am not please happy to discuss.

Next thing I read here is not fast enough. Therefore please everyone check out my thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=714803.msg8296447#msg8296447
I tried to show the development of Cloak over the last 2 weeks. Only facts and community stuff. I didn't quote any rumor or fud.

Cheers!

[strasboug]

Happy to see you guys discussing here.  I am fine with discussing but I am not fine with seeing only one site here. Cloak has to prove that Escrow and POSA works in V2 which is expected this week. After this they want to review everything by trustful Auditors. Thats the most they can do isn't it? After that comes the Open Source, but which is at this moment dangerous because of copying, I am right there too? Correct me if I am not please happy to discuss.

Next thing I read here is not fast enough. Therefore please everyone check out my thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=714803.msg8296447#msg8296447
I tried to show the development of Cloak over the last 2 weeks. Only facts and community stuff. I didn't quote any rumor or fud.

Cheers!

People asked bunch of questions above, and never seen the reply. For Cloakcoin, there is no forceful way to keep the middle nodes to behave correctly, they can do whatever they want basically, thus easy to cheat. The system will work only if the middle nodes will corporate, but there are no reasons for them to do so, in a trustless system.

[burner2014]

Happy to see you guys discussing here.  I am fine with discussing but I am not fine with seeing only one site here. Cloak has to prove that Escrow and POSA works in V2 which is expected this week. After this they want to review everything by trustful Auditors. Thats the most they can do isn't it? After that comes the Open Source, but which is at this moment dangerous because of copying, I am right there too? Correct me if I am not please happy to discuss.

Next thing I read here is not fast enough. Therefore please everyone check out my thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=714803.msg8296447#msg8296447
I tried to show the development of Cloak over the last 2 weeks. Only facts and community stuff. I didn't quote any rumor or fud.

Cheers!

People asked bunch of questions above, and never seen the reply. For Cloakcoin, there is no forceful way to keep the middle nodes to behave correctly, they can do whatever they want basically, thus easy to cheat. The system will work only if the middle nodes will corporate, but there are no reasons for them to do so, in a trustless system.

Ok I am not a Developer to say in the begining.

But now you say it is not possible, but how can you say that without seeing the code and everything because it is not Open Source?
What if your knowledge (no offense please but critical thinking please! ) is not enough to understand what these guys (Developers) are doing.

As I said I am happy to discuss. But how can anyone not beeing the developer saying at the moment that the system don't work?

I just want people to see both sites, people who think its not working and people who think it is working.


When I understand you right you say we will never know what they doing with the middle nodes created to create the annon feature right?
Question here: Do we need to know? I mean if my money comes from a to b and no one can trace it isnt that enough?

[strasboug]

Happy to see you guys discussing here.  I am fine with discussing but I am not fine with seeing only one site here. Cloak has to prove that Escrow and POSA works in V2 which is expected this week. After this they want to review everything by trustful Auditors. Thats the most they can do isn't it? After that comes the Open Source, but which is at this moment dangerous because of copying, I am right there too? Correct me if I am not please happy to discuss.

Next thing I read here is not fast enough. Therefore please everyone check out my thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=714803.msg8296447#msg8296447
I tried to show the development of Cloak over the last 2 weeks. Only facts and community stuff. I didn't quote any rumor or fud.

Cheers!

People asked bunch of questions above, and never seen the reply. For Cloakcoin, there is no forceful way to keep the middle nodes to behave correctly, they can do whatever they want basically, thus easy to cheat. The system will work only if the middle nodes will corporate, but there are no reasons for them to do so, in a trustless system.

Ok I am not a Developer to say in the begining.

But now you say it is not possible, but how can you say that without seeing the code and everything because it is not Open Source?
What if your knowledge (no offense please but critical thinking please! ) is not enough to understand what these guys (Developers) are doing.

As I said I am happy to discuss. But how can anyone not beeing the developer saying at the moment that the system don't work?

I just want people to see both sites, people who think its not working and people who think it is working.


When I understand you right you say we will never know what they doing with the middle nodes created to create the annon feature right?
Question here: Do we need to know? I mean if my money comes from a to b and no one can trace it isnt that enough?

I read all the info published. Without multisig, I don't see a way of forceful situation in a p2p system. There's no restrictions to the middle nodes, you can't simply "expect" it to behave correctly

It is not the problem if we need to know how middle nodes work, it is the problem that if I put a fake node with same APIs but doing different things (e.g. steal coins or send coins to different places), how the system can prevent that? You can't simply expect people use the software you provide, otherwise that's too easy, there will be no cheaters, period.

[Wheatclove]

Happy to see you guys discussing here.  I am fine with discussing but I am not fine with seeing only one site here. Cloak has to prove that Escrow and POSA works in V2 which is expected this week. After this they want to review everything by trustful Auditors. Thats the most they can do isn't it? After that comes the Open Source, but which is at this moment dangerous because of copying, I am right there too? Correct me if I am not please happy to discuss.

Next thing I read here is not fast enough. Therefore please everyone check out my thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=714803.msg8296447#msg8296447
I tried to show the development of Cloak over the last 2 weeks. Only facts and community stuff. I didn't quote any rumor or fud.

Cheers!

People asked bunch of questions above, and never seen the reply. For Cloakcoin, there is no forceful way to keep the middle nodes to behave correctly, they can do whatever they want basically, thus easy to cheat. The system will work only if the middle nodes will corporate, but there are no reasons for them to do so, in a trustless system.

Ok I am not a Developer to say in the begining.

But now you say it is not possible, but how can you say that without seeing the code and everything because it is not Open Source?
What if your knowledge (no offense please but critical thinking please! ) is not enough to understand what these guys (Developers) are doing.

As I said I am happy to discuss. But how can anyone not beeing the developer saying at the moment that the system don't work?

I just want people to see both sites, people who think its not working and people who think it is working.


When I understand you right you say we will never know what they doing with the middle nodes created to create the annon feature right?
Question here: Do we need to know? I mean if my money comes from a to b and no one can trace it isnt that enough?

I read all the info published. Without multisig, I don't see a way of forceful situation in a p2p system. There's no restrictions to the middle nodes, you can't simply "expect" it to behave correctly

It is not the problem if we need to know how middle nodes work, it is the problem that if I put a fake node with same APIs but doing different things (e.g. steal coins or send coins to different places), how the system can prevent that? You can't simply expect people use the software you provide, otherwise that's too easy, there will be no cheaters, period.

You haven't read all of it. X11Joe explained somewhere that each sender and receiver have to give more than the transaction amount to the block escrow. In cloak, the entire network is the escrow. In supercoin, 1 node is the escrow?

[TheDagger]

I read all the info published. Without multisig, I don't see a way of forceful situation in a p2p system. There's no restrictions to the middle nodes, you can't simply "expect" it to behave correctly

It is not the problem if we need to know how middle nodes work, it is the problem that if I put a fake node with same APIs but doing different things (e.g. steal coins or send coins to different places), how the system can prevent that? You can't simply expect people use the software you provide, otherwise that's too easy, there will be no cheaters, period.

Cloak is in the middle of implementing a "block escrow" system that may share some similarities to a multi sig solution but is infact unique.

Once in place there will be nothing that a "bad/fake/evil" node can do to act malicious during a send from A to B. This is because of the order of the posa tx, combined with the blockchain, will not allow corruption.

PoSA will soon be entirely anon + trustless as we set out to achieve from day 1.

Having any kind of risk that a corrupt node could interfere with a transaction was a genuine concern (of the Cloak team and others) and as such it's been dealt with accordingly.