Bitcoin ATM Fees

[XBTeller]

Hi, I am hoping to get the community opinion on the commissions collected by bitcoin ATMs on fiat to bitcoin transactions. XBTeller recently installed its first bitcoin ATM in Denver, CO, with several more in the pipeline. We want to make sure our service is an attractive option to people looking to buy and sell bitcoin. https://xbteller.com/

To avoid an argument over the definition and appropriate use of the phrase ATM, let's agree that the term doesn't exactly fit as they are actually automatic currency exchange machines. But, for the sake of convenience, ATM is fine. We all know what we're talking about.

QUESTION: What % above the Bitstamp spot price is appropriate for ATM operators to collect? U.S. customers, consider the time and money saved not having to wire money to an exchange or deal with third parties in the case of Coinbase.

Thanks a lot for your input.

[franky1]

first question why mention its using bitstamp + spot.

what most smarter people do is find a reasonable priced exchange (secretly higher than bitstamp) and just quote that price.

EG last yeat btc-e was the lowest price and mtgox was the highest, so people just said they were converting at gox price, while secretly swapping at btc-e and keeping the difference.

that way it appeared to the consumer they were not paying fee's, thus staying within the whole "zero to low fee" bitcoin advertising that goes around. as soon as you mention +1% to 5% it turns people off the idea of bitcoin.

[phillipsjk]

If it is not a two-way machine, you may want to consider calling it a "bitcoin vending machine", which will hopefully avoid some regulatory requirements.

I would prefer it if the mark-up is disclosed myself. However, the larger the mark-up, the less often I will use the ATM. The robocoin machine I could not use locally charges 6%. The Bitcoin vending machine I ended up using charged 9%.

[XBTeller]

first question why mention its using bitstamp + spot.

what most smarter people do is find a reasonable priced exchange (secretly higher than bitstamp) and just quote that price.

EG last yeat btc-e was the lowest price and mtgox was the highest, so people just said they were converting at gox price, while secretly swapping at btc-e and keeping the difference.

that way it appeared to the consumer they were not paying fee's, thus staying within the whole "zero to low fee" bitcoin advertising that goes around. as soon as you mention +1% to 5% it turns people off the idea of bitcoin.

First, thank you for explaining that in order to provide a service to consumers one must be smart enough to lie and deceive.
My question was not "how to best fleece consumers into using a bitcoin ATM by hiding the fact that they charge fees?" But I certainly know where to turn when that comes up.

It just so happens that transparent pricing without deceptive marketing tactics is something that many smarter consumers look for. But thanks anyway

[cbeast]

first question why mention its using bitstamp + spot.

what most smarter people do is find a reasonable priced exchange (secretly higher than bitstamp) and just quote that price.

EG last yeat btc-e was the lowest price and mtgox was the highest, so people just said they were converting at gox price, while secretly swapping at btc-e and keeping the difference.

that way it appeared to the consumer they were not paying fee's, thus staying within the whole "zero to low fee" bitcoin advertising that goes around. as soon as you mention +1% to 5% it turns people off the idea of bitcoin.

First, thank you for explaining that in order to provide a service to consumers one must be smart enough to lie and deceive.
My question was not "how to best fleece consumers into using a bitcoin ATM by hiding the fact that they charge fees?" But I certainly know where to turn when that comes up.

It just so happens that transparent pricing without deceptive marketing tactics is something that many smarter consumers look for. But thanks anyway

Yeah. It really bothered me that I paid 2% more than I thought I would right before Bitcoin jumped 500%.

[XBTeller]

If it is not a two-way machine, you may want to consider calling it a "bitcoin vending machine", which will hopefully avoid some regulatory requirements.

I would prefer it if the mark-up is disclosed myself. However, the larger the mark-up, the less often I will use the ATM. The robocoin machine I could not use locally charges 6%. The Bitcoin vending machine I ended up using charged 9%.

As I mentioned, I'm not at all interested in a debate over what to call them. But consider that regardless of being a 1 way machine or a 2 way machine, they aren't ATMs. Also that traditional banking ATMs are mono-directional more often than not.

Not disclosing the mark-up isn't an option. It's a bullshit way to do business. And were you pleased with the 9%?? Seems unreasonably high. What would you have thought was more appropriate?

[sk8]

Hi, I am hoping to get the community opinion on the commissions collected by bitcoin ATMs on fiat to bitcoin transactions. XBTeller recently installed its first bitcoin ATM in Denver, CO, with several more in the pipeline. We want to make sure our service is an attractive option to people looking to buy and sell bitcoin. https://xbteller.com/

To avoid an argument over the definition and appropriate use of the phrase ATM, let's agree that the term doesn't exactly fit as they are actually automatic currency exchange machines. But, for the sake of convenience, ATM is fine. We all know what we're talking about.

QUESTION: What % above the Bitstamp spot price is appropriate for ATM operators to collect? U.S. customers, consider the time and money saved not having to wire money to an exchange or deal with third parties in the case of Coinbase.

Thanks a lot for your input.

By the way, in case you are looking for new places to put an ATM.  There's a neighborhood here in town they have dubbed bitcoin boulevard in Cleveland Heights, Ohio.  Several retailers have banded together and are all doing business in bitcoin.  I'm unsure if they currently have an ATM at that location, but it would be a great place to put one.

[XBTeller]

Yeah. It really bothered me that I paid 2% more than I thought I would right before Bitcoin jumped 500%.

So is there any chance of getting one of you to just say "I think X% is the appropriate commission to charge"?

[cbeast]

Yeah. It really bothered me that I paid 2% more than I thought I would right before Bitcoin jumped 500%.

So is there any chance of getting one of you to just say "I think X% is the appropriate commission to charge"?

Back then it wasn't unusual to see 20% or more volatility in a day. Nowadays things are a lot more stable. With the current volatility, 2% is reasonable if you are willing to wait a couple weeks for the AML verification. If you want instant gratification, you'll pay more based on the level of convenience. If you could buy bitcoins with your groceries at Piggly Wiggly, I think 8-10% is reasonable at this juncture.

[phillipsjk]

Not disclosing the mark-up isn't an option. Its a bullshit way to do business. And were you pleased with the 9%?? Seems unreasonably high. What would you have thought was more appropriate?

No I was not. I did not have a calculator, so estimated it was around 10%.

However, This machine did not ask for may name; only my QR code. Not sure if that deserves a premium.

However, because I only bought $20 worth, the transaction fees worked out to $1.74, which would be cheaper than trying to use an exchange.

I think I would kind of expect a premium of at least 3% from an "ATM": especially with the volatility of the price.

The merchant I was using was offering a 10% discount for paying in Bitcoin. You may want to check common merchants to see what the most common discount is (and try to stay below it).

[jjc326]

If it is not a two-way machine, you may want to consider calling it a "bitcoin vending machine", which will hopefully avoid some regulatory requirements.

I would prefer it if the mark-up is disclosed myself. However, the larger the mark-up, the less often I will use the ATM. The robocoin machine I could not use locally charges 6%. The Bitcoin vending machine I ended up using charged 9%.

Agree with this about it not being an ATM, I hate that these types of things are called ATMs but you can't SELL your Bitcoin to get fiat.

[XBTeller]

Agree with this about it not being an ATM, I hate that these types of things are called ATMs but you can't SELL your Bitcoin to get fiat.

I think it's odd to get so hung up on this, but it's certainly a common point of contention.

[qwerty555]

to be as fair as possible to all sides and encourage people who want to buy bitcoin to use the service

Maybe Use an aggregated price or

currently as I write

Coindesk 583.5

Coinbase 583.69

and charge 1%.

I would personally not use any service (now ..as i have paid 3% in the past) with a higher than 1% cost..and in time I would hope that halves

can a break even point be reached at this rate in the next 6 months?  unlikely  in 1 yr ..maybe..in 2 yrs good chance.  depending of course on the location of the "atm"

[phillipsjk]

Agree with this about it not being an ATM, I hate that these types of things are called ATMs but you can't SELL your Bitcoin to get fiat.

I think it's odd to get so hung up on this, but it's certainly a common point of contention.

If it is a two way ATM, you are a money service business. If it is one way, you are more like a precious metal dealer (still subject to regulation, but it may be less stringent).

I could not use my local robocoin ATM because they require me to have a cell-phone. They also require a government ID scan and handprint.

Traditional banks issue you their own identifying card after doing identification in an office setting. This means you don't have to submit documents every time you make a transaction.

[qwerty555]

Yeah. It really bothered me that I paid 2% more than I thought I would right before Bitcoin jumped 500%.

So is there any chance of getting one of you to just say "I think X% is the appropriate commission to charge"?

Back then it wasn't unusual to see 20% or more volatility in a day. Nowadays things are a lot more stable. With the current volatility, 2% is reasonable if you are willing to wait a couple weeks for the AML verification. If you want instant gratification, you'll pay more based on the level of convenience. If you could buy bitcoins with your groceries at Piggly Wiggly, I think 8-10% is reasonable at this juncture.

You can already buy groceries at "piggly" with the anx card....

http://debitcard.anxintl.com/

It looks like this is the cost

2.5% to load with bitcoin..a further 0.5% spread to convert to $ on the card  (card has a $ balance)..and there may be a monthly charge..I will look into it to get their full terms...that appears to be  about 3-5% which is not too bad if you want the convenience to shop alomost anywhere


edit
http://www.coindesk.com/exchange-anx-launch-reloadable-bitcoin-debit-cards/

[Stery]

http://debitcard.anxintl.com/

There is maximum cash withdrawal $200 USD (or equivalent) per day limit

[qwerty555]

The fees are a bit higher depending on how you use it

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/ken-lo-ceo-anx-hong-kong-bitcoin-exchange-talks-bitcoin-debit-cards/2014/07/16

What fees will be associated with the ANX debit card?

    As our fees may change from time to time, it’s best to check our fee schedule on our website to ensure the most accurate fee pricing.

After visiting the ANX website, the current fees for the ANX Debit Card are as follows:

ATM Withdrawal – $2.75

ATM Withdrawal Decline – $1.25

POS Purchase – $1.50

POS Purchase Decline – $0.20

Monthly Fee – None

Card Load Fee – $5 USD + 2.5%

Card Unload Fee – $10 USD

[qwerty555]

http://debitcard.anxintl.com/

There is maximum cash withdrawal $200 USD (or equivalent) per day limit

Can you purchase any amount up to your current loaded limit..at a 1.5% POS cost?  eg if you have $5,000 loaded on your card I assume you can buy $4,925 of goods and services

This is HK based..it is not unlikely that mainland Chinese on holiday abroad could use this to circumvent the $50,000 / year currency control ..I would  LOL

[qwerty555]

For comparison  it looks like anx has xapo beat

http://www.coindesk.com/xapo-faces-online-backlash-debit-card-fees/



When it announced the card, Xapo promised a $15 one-time shipping and handling fee, but the company did not reveal any information on other associated costs.

The fee schedule, however, revealed the following card charges:

    A monthly service fee of $4.95, or £3.95/€3.95 for European customers
    An international ATM transaction surcharge
    Declined transactions costs of $1, or £1/€1
    Domestic ATM transaction costs of $3.50 per transaction, or £2.50/€2.50 in Europe.


http://media.coindesk.com/2014/08/xapo-debit-card-fee-schedule.png

[waldox]

as someone who advocates capitalism the ATM owners can charge as much as they want, if its absurd % then there will be incentive for the next guy to undercut him. bitcoin atms are starting to become more common