bitcoin changing my ideology from socialism to libertarianism! What about you?

[inBitweTrust]

It is theft to me.

Call it what you want -- it involves threats backed by guns and jails and
taking away what someone earned on their own to give it to someone else.

This is socialism... this is what the OP said he changed from.

I have yet to hear an Anarcho-communist or socialist explain how their form of consensus decision making doesn't ultimately involve violence and theft. They prefer to only mention the inherent "structural violence" within the existing system but will refuse to defend their position when we cite the prevalence of structural violence and political violence in their framework. (History is replete with failed socialist and anarcho-communist examples).

They could easily test their ideas out without interference because many nation states like the US allow exclusions for non-capitalistic not for profit communities. They could live tax free and happy and never touch any currency but many don't. Why?
An anarcho-capitalist doesn't have these exemptions from the state to go unmolested.

[1715662244]

1715662244

[1715662244]

1715662244

[Beliathon]

It is theft to me.

Call it what you want -- it involves threats backed by guns and jails and
taking away what someone earned on their own to give it to someone else.

This is socialism... this is what the OP said he changed from.

I have yet to hear an Anarcho-communist or socialist explain how their form of consensus decision making doesn't ultimately involve violence and theft.

I have yet to see a version of capitalism that doesn't involve systematic hierarchy-based violence on a massive scale, rampant hideous corruption, starvation associated with global food waste, exploitation and loss of human dignity, sex slavery, and worldwide environmental devastation.

At least with anarchism there will be a living planet left for our grandchildren to inherit, to say nothing of the other ills caused by the profit motive. Let's take the lesser of two evils, eh?

[inBitweTrust]

They prefer to only mention the inherent "structural violence" within the existing system but will refuse to defend their position when we cite the prevalence of structural violence and political violence in their framework. (History is replete with failed socialist and anarcho-communist examples).

I have yet to see a version of capitalism that doesn't involve systematic hierarchy-based violence on a massive scale, rampant hideous corruption, starvation associated with global food waste, exploitation and loss of human dignity, sex slavery, and worldwide environmental devastation.

At least with anarchism there will be a living planet left for our grandchildren to inherit, to say nothing of the other ills caused by the profit motive. Let's take the lesser of two evils, eh?

Thanks for proving my point once again. You are in a very unique position to actually attempt to fulfill your utopian dreams unmolested by state interference and yet you refuse to(...because staying with some chick is more important to you than the evils you describe?)

I would happily admit I am wrong and join your community if you can show it to be more prosperous than the current status quo.

[Beliathon]

Thanks for proving my point once again. You are in a very unique position to actually attempt to fulfill your utopian dreams unmolested by state interference and yet you refuse to

You know nothing of my life, you know nothing about what "position" I am in. Furthermore, you ask me to build a ship, while I am already swimming in the middle of the ocean. You are a fool, and undeserving of the honor of debating me.

[inBitweTrust]

You ask me to build a ship, while I am already swimming in the middle ocean. You are a fool, and undeserving of the honor of debating me.

The ship has already been built, all you have to do is climb on board. Do you want a list of existing anarcho-communist communities?

Perhaps it isn't your exact flavor of communism? You could always change it from within or get other like minded people to assist you.

Here is one example :  http://www.twinoakscommunity.org

Let me know if you need more.

[Beliathon]

Here is one example :  http://www.twinoakscommunity.org

These people are no more free of capitalism than you or I. They have a hammock making and furniture making business, every member of the community works 42 hours each week. If they cannot sustain a certain income, they stand lose everything.

As I said, you ask me to build a ship, but I already swimming.

[inBitweTrust]

Here is one example :  http://www.twinoakscommunity.org

These people are no more free of capitalism than you or I. They have a hammock making and furniture making business, every member of the community works 42 hours each week. If they cannot sustain a certain income, they stand lose everything.

As I said, you ask me to build a ship, but I already swimming.

Some people choose to accept "dirty money" in their community and some never touch it an simply contribute labor and resources. You could join part of the group that doesn't touch money at all. No one is forcing you to use money and to participate in capitalism. Within twinoaks you aren't forced to work as a capitalist and receive "dirty money".

[Beliathon]

No one is forcing you to use money and to participate in capitalism. Within twinoaks you aren't forced to work as a capitalist and receive "dirty money".

Read the website. Every member is required to work 42 hours per week. Sounds like a job to me, and given the work produces goods that are then sold outside the community in exchange for, you guessed it, money - that's capitalism.

They give you $25 per week spending money, so it's also FAR below minimum wage. Sounds like an exploitation farm to me.

[jonald_fyookball]

No one is forcing you to use money and to participate in capitalism. Within twinoaks you aren't forced to work as a capitalist and receive "dirty money".

Read the website. Every member is required to work 42 hours per week. Sounds like a job to me, and given the work produces goods that are then sold outside the community in exchange for, you guessed it, money - that's capitalism.
 

Values have to come from somewhere.  SOMEBODY has to ultimately do the work.
Why are you complaining that people have to work?

If you don't personally EARN your values, then someone ELSE has to work to provide
them to you. 

So, either you fundamentally accept that people should earn for themselves,
or you condone forced back wealth distribution to some degree.  There's no other
options.

[inBitweTrust]

No one is forcing you to use money and to participate in capitalism. Within twinoaks you aren't forced to work as a capitalist and receive "dirty money".

Read the website. Every member is required to work 42 hours per week. Sounds like a job to me, and given the work produces goods that are then sold outside the community in exchange for, you guessed it, money - that's capitalism.

They give you $25 per week spending money, so it's also FAR below minimum wage. Sounds like an exploitation farm to me.

Yes, you are proving my point. The lack of property ownership, sharing of all resources , and anarcho-communist consensus decision making forces them to work 42 hours a week to survive with rudimentary standards. This is even with the advantage of not having to pay taxes like the rest of us.

Perhaps, if you join them you can show what they are doing wrong and reduce the work week from 42 to 30 or 20?

 The 25 usd is on top of all other needs, housing , food, utilities, ect....You don't have to take the 25 dollars, you can take more resources instead if you don't like currency.

Are you suggesting that they require 42 hours because they are merely sadists? If you can show them how to survive in a anarcho-communist fashion with less hours than I'm sure they would be more than happy to work less. There are no bosses and owners at Twinoaks, you all share in the resources and decisions equally.


This is an anarcho- communist community with some aspects that chooses to participate and trade with the outside capitalist society. They do this because they find it advantageous to trade with others. You don't have to participate in those transactions.

It is painful to have to say this but here it goes: Yes, you have to work to survive. Work doesn't necessarily involve money.  This is a fact in a communist or capitalist society.

[forevernoob]

Everyone of these anarcho-communist places sounds like Amish communities to me.
A bunch of people living isolated from the rest just because they hate the free world.

[Beliathon]

Everyone of these anarcho-communist places sounds like Amish communities to me.

Ditto, because they are amish. These people are clearly anti-technology. They don't allow cars and it sounds like they don't have much in the way of computers, either.

Everyone of these anarcho-communist places sounds like Amish communities to me.

Ditto, because they are amish, without the god fixation. These people are clearly anti-technology. They don't allow cars and it sounds like they don't have much in the way of computers, either.

It's a bunch of hippies living on a farm. So because I'm anarchist I have to live an 18th century lifestyle, InBitWeTrust? I call bullshit.

[jonald_fyookball]

Everyone of these anarcho-communist places sounds like Amish communities to me.

Ditto, because they are amish. These people are clearly anti-technology. They don't allow cars and it sounds like they don't have much in the way of computers, either.

Everyone of these anarcho-communist places sounds like Amish communities to me.

Ditto, because they are amish, without the god fixation. These people are clearly anti-technology. They don't allow cars and it sounds like they don't have much in the way of computers, either.

It's a bunch of hippies living on a farm. So because I'm anarchist I have to live an 18th century lifestyle, InBitWeTrust? I call bullshit.

So... your version would be the same thing, but you would allow cars and computers.   

[forevernoob]

They would have cars but technology wise they would be shit compared to what capitalism offers:



That's how we roll in the free world.

[Beliathon]

So... your version would be the same thing, but you would allow cars and computers.  

Keep putting words in my mouth, really strengthens your argument.  

That's how we roll in the free world.

"We feel free because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom"
-Slavoj Zizek, Welcome to the Desert of the Real, 5 essays on 9/11

[practicaldreamer]

No coercion here - or here. Just people taking control of the wealth that was rightfully theirs all along. Call it communism, socialism, anarcho syndicalism etc etc - it doesn't really matter - its the future.

     "The US (capitalism) is predicated on violence" - Don King said that, and he knows a thing or two about violence  . Wether he was referring to the slave trade or the colonists seizure of the native americans land, I'm not sure.
    Either way, land is the source of all wealth, and you and I have next to zero of it. Don't kid yourself that you are "classless and clever and free" just because you run a business that turns over £70k a year - you have fuck all, just like the rest of us. By contrast, the native americans had everything - but then they had a very different idea of "ownership" than that the likes of you and I have been embued with.

[jonald_fyookball]

So... your version would be the same thing, but you would allow cars and computers.   

Keep putting words in my mouth, really strengthens your argument. 

...but you won't correct me, or say how you could improve on their society, other than not to be anti technology.
You still have no magic potion that allows people to escape from working.

[inBitweTrust]

Ditto, because they are amish, without the god fixation. These people are clearly anti-technology. They don't allow cars and it sounds like they don't have much in the way of computers, either.

It's a bunch of hippies living on a farm. So because I'm anarchist I have to live an 18th century lifestyle, InBitWeTrust? I call bullshit.

Now you are just making up facts. They aren't anti-technology. They are just environmentally conscientious.

They have computers, solar hot water, photovoltaic solar electricity, and plenty of vehicles:

"Twin Oaks collectively owns a fleet of about 18 vehicles (including cars, pick-up trucks, cargo vans, and a mini-van) for our approximately 85 adult members."

"We collectively own about 15 public computers, many of which are networked with each other and connected to the internet. They are available for both community work and personal use. We share a T1 connection--with the dozens of users we have though we generally can't stream video and we don't allow file sharing.

Many members have their own personal computer (laptops and desktops) kept in their bedrooms, which they can use for either community work or personal use. Most members have email accounts and use them for both internal (within the community) and external communication. As you've discovered, Twin Oaks has an extensive webpage and several members have their own webpages.
 "

[inBitweTrust]

No coercion here - or here. Just people taking control of the wealth that was rightfully theirs all along. Call it communism, socialism, anarcho syndicalism etc etc - it doesn't really matter - its the future.

The links you provide don't clarify how decisions are made when there is a disagreement among members in the society. Please provide the consensus method so I can verify no coercion is used.

[Beliathon]

No coercion here - or here. Just people taking control of the wealth that was rightfully theirs all along. Call it communism, socialism, anarcho syndicalism etc etc - it doesn't really matter - its the future.

     "The US (capitalism) is predicated on violence" - Don King said that, and he knows a thing or two about violence  . Wether he was referring to the slave trade or the colonists seizure of the native americans land, I'm not sure.
    Either way, land is the source of all wealth, and you and I have next to zero of it. Don't kid yourself that you are "classless and clever and free" just because you run a business that turns over £70k a year - you have fuck all, just like the rest of us. By contrast, the native americans had everything - but then they had a very different idea of "ownership" than that the likes of you and I have been embued with.

Indeed

We do not inherit the Earth from our ancestors. We borrow it from our children.