Multi-vPoW and Block "Tips" - Myriadcoin's Solution to Parasitic Merge Mining

[digitalindustry]

Read the full article here: http://coinbrief.net/myriadcoin-merge-mining/

Visualizing multi-vPoW

again back to my Question its a possible beautiful answer but it needs peer review as what determines the score - i.e the score for the block randomization  - i assume its in the code - but can you point me to it link me for example put the link here.

[LightningBlade]

Nice concept, but sounds really hard to implement...

[ahmed_bodi]

Nice concept, but sounds really hard to implement...

We've already implemented it. Our coin is already Multi Algo and i've privately used merged-mining on the PolyMYR pool

[Crestington]

Nice concept, but sounds really hard to implement...

We've already implemented it. Our coin is already Multi Algo and i've privately used merged-mining on the PolyMYR pool

How does so many algo's tackle blockchain bloat? I would assume the extra hashes from just mono-merge mining would add a fair bit of bloat over time but mining over 4-5 algo's should then add a fair amount of extra bloat to the blockchain. What is Myriadcoin's growth in size per year?

[ahmed_bodi]

Nice concept, but sounds really hard to implement...

We've already implemented it. Our coin is already Multi Algo and i've privately used merged-mining on the PolyMYR pool

How does so many algo's tackle blockchain bloat? I would assume the extra hashes from just mono-merge mining would add a fair bit of bloat over time but mining over 4-5 algo's should then add a fair amount of extra bloat to the blockchain. What is Myriadcoin's growth in size per year?

It adds absolutely 0 extra in comparison to other coins of similar specs with single algorithms. MYR wont get bloated by merged mining its the child coins e.g. IXC, I0C, USC, DOGE which will have larger blockchains due to the merged-mining and the multi-algo even then wont make a difference

[neuroMode]

Read the full article here: http://coinbrief.net/myriadcoin-merge-mining/

Visualizing multi-vPoW

again back to my Question its a possible beautiful answer but it needs peer review as what determines the score - i.e the score for the block randomization  - i assume its in the code - but can you point me to it link me for example put the link here.

"but it needs peer review as what determines the score - i.e. the score for the block randomization"

When you say block randomization, do you mean the lower block rewards given at seemingly random to the algorithms of child blockchains being merged mined by a parent?

If so, peer review would work...but I think what would be healthier is just trial and error. We release experimental coins or other developers give it a whirl and the free market will sort out what are proper balances for the real block rewards and merge-mining block rewards (which are more like block "tips")

[neuroMode]

I like the multi-symbiosis of Myriadcoin, I researched it a bit a few months ago and it's a good idea. By working on multi-algorithmic mining and merge mining, it opens more doors to different features in cross-chain transactions and securing many small networks. I am quite avid though that Proof of Work alone with high rewards over time tends to hurt price so I am not quite sure how this should combat this because if you have something that will gain you proportionally more over time, you would have more of a tendency to hold on to it.

"I am quite avid though that Proof of Work alone with high rewards over time tends to hurt price so I am not quite sure how this should combat this because if you have something that will gain you proportionally more over time, you would have more of a tendency to hold on to it."

What is being gained proportionally more over time in this case? Myriadcoins? The child coins? Holding any coins is good for the price, is it not?

My idea revolves around the whole idea of removing the perception that merge mining does nothing but kill the price of the child coins. If we can still retain high network security (hashrate) while removing the real and perceived "dumping fest", we WIN and we can begin to use merge mining in much more creative ways than it's being used right now.

What are some of the things that Myriadcoin wants to strive for over a long period?

Solving merge-mining, experimenting with this idea and coming up with a proper balance between block rewards and block tips.
Bringing mining to developing worlds. We dont want to force people to have to just buy our coin to use it, we want them to mine it to. Bitcoin, unfortunately, has become a country club of mining. We want to reach areas that Bitcoin cannot.

Part of this initiative is fulfilled with our development of "Simplicity", a "two-click" wallet and mining software package that aims to remove ALL complicated/overwhelming/confusing aspects of setting up mining for the first time. Link to beta download is here: http://myriadplatform.org/simplicity/

We get lost in our little cryptobubble and forget how hard and complicated it is for people on the outside to understand. They want to be a part but cryptocurrencies cast an intimidating shadow that causes many to just forget it and go about their normal lives. Nuh-uh. Myriadcoin is aiming to make the on-ramp a little smoother.

[btczar]

I have done merged mining using blake-256, its really cool mining as usual, but you get what you mined, plus extra other alt coins
I think what you are proposing here could be the way of the future. What is the next step to get this going? I would like to try it out...I still have my settings for when I was mining Myriad using skein algo.

[neuroMode]

I have done merged mining using blake-256, its really cool mining as usual, but you get what you mined, plus extra other alt coins
I think what you are proposing here could be the way of the future. What is the next step to get this going? I would like to try it out...I still have my settings for when I was mining Myriad using skein algo.

Thank you. Just stay tuned to Myriad and we'll let you know when PolyMYR is released where you can try this out.

[foodies123]

I have a question it doesn't directly relate to the topic but more to vPoW-
let me give you a scenario - :

is there an attack vector that exists here:

lets say we have for example 3 "algos"

1. Xa

2. Xb

3. Xc

now (in this world) - there is a beautiful community developed CPU and GPU miner for both

what this miner does is it can mine each of the 3 and choose the lowest diff of each -

is there a potential attack vector where the miner can "game" the next block i.e by jumping form aglo to aglo -

so exploited some how the way in which the next block is determined?

sorry for the newb question.

what i'm asking is:

what is the mechanism that determines the next block is it really random?

None, the block hash is generated and can be solved by any of the algos. It's just a matter of difficulty vs hash power.

[depboy]

So which coins can be merge mined already, and which coins (other than Doge) are due to fork in the near future to be part of polyMYR? Is there a master list somewhere with dates for when forks are due to happen?

[gamer1coin]

How would P2P pools work on a child network? Would a miner need to be modified so it registers two address, eg -u [Parent Address Myriad], [Child Address Altcoin] so when a block is found the miner finds what coin was found and sends the coins to the corresponding address

Also another thing, will I be able to mine 2 or more coins besides the parentcoin on the same algo? Because then I could get 3 coins I want plus Myriad. I'm guessing it's not possible and you can only mine the chosen child coin and parent coin, but it's worth a try asking

Thank you

[Crestington]

I have a question it doesn't directly relate to the topic but more to vPoW-
let me give you a scenario - :

is there an attack vector that exists here:

lets say we have for example 3 "algos"

1. Xa

2. Xb

3. Xc

now (in this world) - there is a beautiful community developed CPU and GPU miner for both

what this miner does is it can mine each of the 3 and choose the lowest diff of each -

is there a potential attack vector where the miner can "game" the next block i.e by jumping form aglo to aglo -

so exploited some how the way in which the next block is determined?

sorry for the newb question.

what i'm asking is:

what is the mechanism that determines the next block is it really random?

None, the block hash is generated and can be solved by any of the algos. It's just a matter of difficulty vs hash power.

So then couldn't a group of miners devote hash power to the algorithm with the lowest difficulty? or does it become where the sheer number of different altcoins it can be mined with should make that unachievable?

Lets assume that a mining pool of groups of mining pools have a lot of hashpower in different algorithms and can switch their hashpower to the algorithms of the lowest difficulty like the reverse polarity of the Myriad Blockchain itself to achieve maximum profit. How would the different algorithms prevent such an attack?

This is a good project and important for all altcoins so I am trying to get my head around how this can be implemented on a large scale.

[neuroMode]

So which coins can be merge mined already, and which coins (other than Doge) are due to fork in the near future to be part of polyMYR? Is there a master list somewhere with dates for when forks are due to happen?

I don't know if a master list exists anywhere...that would be a nice thing to have.

However, merge mining pools already exist. ManicMiner.in, for example. (http://manicminer.in/docs/coins)

Here is the list they have (they refer to parent coins as "main" and child coins as "sec):

[neuroMode]

I have a question it doesn't directly relate to the topic but more to vPoW-
let me give you a scenario - :

is there an attack vector that exists here:

lets say we have for example 3 "algos"

1. Xa

2. Xb

3. Xc

now (in this world) - there is a beautiful community developed CPU and GPU miner for both

what this miner does is it can mine each of the 3 and choose the lowest diff of each -

is there a potential attack vector where the miner can "game" the next block i.e by jumping form aglo to aglo -

so exploited some how the way in which the next block is determined?

sorry for the newb question.

what i'm asking is:

what is the mechanism that determines the next block is it really random?

None, the block hash is generated and can be solved by any of the algos. It's just a matter of difficulty vs hash power.

So then couldn't a group of miners devote hash power to the algorithm with the lowest difficulty? or does it become where the sheer number of different altcoins it can be mined with should make that unachievable?

Lets assume that a mining pool of groups of mining pools have a lot of hashpower in different algorithms and can switch their hashpower to the algorithms of the lowest difficulty like the reverse polarity of the Myriad Blockchain itself to achieve maximum profit. How would the different algorithms prevent such an attack?

This is a good project and important for all altcoins so I am trying to get my head around how this can be implemented on a large scale.

Right now Myriad has a chicken and egg problem: Our hashrate is not incredibly high, but once we gain hashrate through PolyMYR and Simplicity we should have continuous long lasting high network hashrates that should make it increasingly harder to attack individual algorithms.

Furthermore, we have discussed some interesting mechanisms to prevent algorithms from solving multiple blocks in a row. One solution might be to temporarily raise the difficulty on one algorithm if it finds two blocks in a row. The difficulty would rise exponentially if they found 3, 4, 5 blocks in a row. So even if an attacker is trying to form 5-6 blocks in a row and then insert them into the blockchain, the exponentially rising difficulty would prevent them from ever getting to that 5th or 6th block in a reasonable timespan.

[depboy]

So which coins can be merge mined already, and which coins (other than Doge) are due to fork in the near future to be part of polyMYR? Is there a master list somewhere with dates for when forks are due to happen?

I don't know if a master list exists anywhere...that would be a nice thing to have.

However, merge mining pools already exist. ManicMiner.in, for example. (http://manicminer.in/docs/coins)

Here is the list they have (they refer to parent coins as "main" and child coins as "sec):

Sure, most of the sha256 and scrypt ones are easily found. I was really asking about coins that may be in the pipeline for the other 3 algos, and what stage you're at with convincing any of them to fork?

[neuroMode]

So which coins can be merge mined already, and which coins (other than Doge) are due to fork in the near future to be part of polyMYR? Is there a master list somewhere with dates for when forks are due to happen?

I don't know if a master list exists anywhere...that would be a nice thing to have.

However, merge mining pools already exist. ManicMiner.in, for example. (http://manicminer.in/docs/coins)

Here is the list they have (they refer to parent coins as "main" and child coins as "sec):

Sure, most of the sha256 and scrypt ones are easily found. I was really asking about coins that may be in the pipeline for the other 3 algos, and what stage you're at with convincing any of them to fork?

Ah! We will be releasing some experimental coins with those other 3 algos. I believe we have Skeincoin forking for us. Myriad-Groestl and Qubit are still relatively unused algorithms but they'll gain in popularity once PolyMYR is underway.

[neuroMode]

Better graphic:

[Crestington]

I have a question it doesn't directly relate to the topic but more to vPoW-
let me give you a scenario - :

is there an attack vector that exists here:

lets say we have for example 3 "algos"

1. Xa

2. Xb

3. Xc

now (in this world) - there is a beautiful community developed CPU and GPU miner for both

what this miner does is it can mine each of the 3 and choose the lowest diff of each -

is there a potential attack vector where the miner can "game" the next block i.e by jumping form aglo to aglo -

so exploited some how the way in which the next block is determined?

sorry for the newb question.

what i'm asking is:

what is the mechanism that determines the next block is it really random?

None, the block hash is generated and can be solved by any of the algos. It's just a matter of difficulty vs hash power.

So then couldn't a group of miners devote hash power to the algorithm with the lowest difficulty? or does it become where the sheer number of different altcoins it can be mined with should make that unachievable?

Lets assume that a mining pool of groups of mining pools have a lot of hashpower in different algorithms and can switch their hashpower to the algorithms of the lowest difficulty like the reverse polarity of the Myriad Blockchain itself to achieve maximum profit. How would the different algorithms prevent such an attack?

This is a good project and important for all altcoins so I am trying to get my head around how this can be implemented on a large scale.

Right now Myriad has a chicken and egg problem: Our hashrate is not incredibly high, but once we gain hashrate through PolyMYR and Simplicity we should have continuous long lasting high network hashrates that should make it increasingly harder to attack individual algorithms.

Furthermore, we have discussed some interesting mechanisms to prevent algorithms from solving multiple blocks in a row. One solution might be to temporarily raise the difficulty on one algorithm if it finds two blocks in a row. The difficulty would rise exponentially if they found 3, 4, 5 blocks in a row. So even if an attacker is trying to form 5-6 blocks in a row and then insert them into the blockchain, the exponentially rising difficulty would prevent them from ever getting to that 5th or 6th block in a reasonable timespan.

Awesome project guys, thanks for answering all my questions. I can see Myriadcoin doing something truly great and will definitely check out your Beta Wallet.

[digitalindustry]

I have a question it doesn't directly relate to the topic but more to vPoW-
let me give you a scenario - :

is there an attack vector that exists here:

lets say we have for example 3 "algos"

1. Xa

2. Xb

3. Xc

now (in this world) - there is a beautiful community developed CPU and GPU miner for both

what this miner does is it can mine each of the 3 and choose the lowest diff of each -

is there a potential attack vector where the miner can "game" the next block i.e by jumping form aglo to aglo -

so exploited some how the way in which the next block is determined?

sorry for the newb question.

what i'm asking is:

what is the mechanism that determines the next block is it really random?

None, the block hash is generated and can be solved by any of the algos. It's just a matter of difficulty vs hash power.

So then couldn't a group of miners devote hash power to the algorithm with the lowest difficulty? or does it become where the sheer number of different altcoins it can be mined with should make that unachievable?

Lets assume that a mining pool of groups of mining pools have a lot of hashpower in different algorithms and can switch their hashpower to the algorithms of the lowest difficulty like the reverse polarity of the Myriad Blockchain itself to achieve maximum profit. How would the different algorithms prevent such an attack?

This is a good project and important for all altcoins so I am trying to get my head around how this can be implemented on a large scale.

Right now Myriad has a chicken and egg problem: Our hashrate is not incredibly high, but once we gain hashrate through PolyMYR and Simplicity we should have continuous long lasting high network hashrates that should make it increasingly harder to attack individual algorithms.

Furthermore, we have discussed some interesting mechanisms to prevent algorithms from solving multiple blocks in a row. One solution might be to temporarily raise the difficulty on one algorithm if it finds two blocks in a row. The difficulty would rise exponentially if they found 3, 4, 5 blocks in a row. So even if an attacker is trying to form 5-6 blocks in a row and then insert them into the blockchain, the exponentially rising difficulty would prevent them from ever getting to that 5th or 6th block in a reasonable timespan.

hmm very interesting -

i like it !