State Atheism

[Rigon]

Now - till you actually show what from those links you 'think' supports your contention, rigon, what is there to respond to?  So far, nothing from that first link supports your position.   Your questions are based on your thinking those links support your case - yet they do not.  This is where your confusion lies.  There is no point dealing with questions that are based on falsehoods, on false assumptions on your part.

So, if you want to see why this is so, well, you need to paste what sections of those links you think do support it.  So far, what you have pasted from this link below does not support your position - in fact, nothing you posted from this link even mentions Norway, ironically enough.  Admit that, or paste something to support your case, and we can move on to your next piece of 'evidence'.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

I have a case .  I made my case.  You may disagree with it.  You clearly have no intention to respond to the case I made.   But I made a case.  Everyone can see I made a case whether they agree with it or not.

In a debate with grown-ups, this is the part where it is your turn to tell me what is wrong with the case I already made.  Not to simply say "try again until you provide an answer that satisfies me" 

[Rigon]

In other words, you want to argue over how best to put up the roof, when you refuse to see that you have mislaid the foundation, and refuse to even consider that you have mislaid it. 

My claim is substantiated by the preponderance of the evidence I presented .  Atheists are not bad.  They don't need religion to be happy healthy prosperous and decent people.  Atheism doesn't make people bad.    I presented plenty of data.  Atheists are underrepresented in prisons.  Places where there are many of them have low crime and happiness and lots of social cohesion.

I have substantiated my claims.  You haven't even made a claim.  One of my questions is:  What is your claim?  Is it that atheism is bad?   Your only answer in over 200 posts was "it doesn't have a good track record".    Well, according to my data I presented in the CLAIM I substantiated, it does.  These are the questions you wont answer.

Look at the mental gymnastics you go through to avoid them?

[zolace]

In other words, you want to argue over how best to put up the roof, when you refuse to see that you have mislaid the foundation, and refuse to even consider that you have mislaid it. 

My claim is substantiated by the preponderance of the evidence I presented .  Atheists are not bad.  They don't need religion to be happy healthy prosperous and decent people.  Atheism doesn't make people bad.    I presented plenty of data.  Atheists are underrepresented in prisons.  Places where there are many of them have low crime and happiness and lots of social cohesion.

I have substantiated my claims.  You haven't even made a claim.  One of my questions is:  What is your claim?  Is it that atheism is bad?   Your only answer in over 200 posts was "it doesn't have a good track record".    Well, according to my data I presented in the CLAIM I substantiated, it does.  These are the questions you wont answer.

Look at the mental gymnastics you go through to avoid them?

No, you have not made your case.  Not at all.  And clearly, you do not wish to be questioned on it.

You can't even admit that the link below does provide any backing for you - you have posted nothing from it that even mentions Norway.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

How much sillier can that get?

Look, you are embracing emotion over logic on this - and frankly, we are in an impasse as long as you continue that.

[Rigon]

In other words, you want to argue over how best to put up the roof, when you refuse to see that you have mislaid the foundation, and refuse to even consider that you have mislaid it. 

My claim is substantiated by the preponderance of the evidence I presented .  Atheists are not bad.  They don't need religion to be happy healthy prosperous and decent people.  Atheism doesn't make people bad.    I presented plenty of data.  Atheists are underrepresented in prisons.  Places where there are many of them have low crime and happiness and lots of social cohesion.

I have substantiated my claims.  You haven't even made a claim.  One of my questions is:  What is your claim?  Is it that atheism is bad?   Your only answer in over 200 posts was "it doesn't have a good track record".    Well, according to my data I presented in the CLAIM I substantiated, it does.  These are the questions you wont answer.

Look at the mental gymnastics you go through to avoid them?

No, you have not made your case.  Not at all.  And clearly, you do not wish to be questioned on it.

You can't even admit that the link below does provide any backing for you - you have posted nothing from it that even mentions Norway.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

How much sillier can that get?

Look, you are embracing emotion over logic on this - and frankly, we are in an impasse as long as you continue that.

I made my case.

You didn't like my case.

This is the part where you say why my case is wrong, not continue to ask me to make my case again simply because you didn't like it.  Any fool reading this can see I made my case whether they agree with it or not.  Any fool reading this can see you are dodging the logical questions that arise as PART OF MY CASE THAT I ALREADY MADE.

You are claiming that state atheism is bad...we assume.  We can also only assume you feel atheism is what makes the people bad since you will not actually state your point, although asked repeatedly for 8 pages now.  This is your thread and you wont even state your point.  LOL

In any event, assuming that you think atheism makes people bad, my case was quite thorough.

[Rigon]

From the link you are obsessed with, among all the other link and citation I provided, I have demonstrated the following that is counter to your position that atheism makes people bad:

1) Atheists are under-represented in the prison population by a factor of more than 10 relative to their numbers in society.  Apparently, being atheist doesn't make you commit crime at any greater rate than anyone else.

2)  Many nations place far less importance on religion than the US.  Germany actually ranked highest with 80% responding religion is unimportant.  Many societies with far greater percentages of atheists (statistically significant) including Norway with 3 times more atheists per capita than the US, has low crime and a far safer society.  Having more atheists has not made them worse as your point in this thread would have people believe, in fact, they are better off by many measures. So again, there is no evidence that being atheist makes people commit crime at a higher rate.   
         
3) Many societies with far greater percentages of atheists have perrenially been found to be happy, satisfied, and socially cohesive communities compared with other more religious places in the world.   Only 13% of people attend church once a month or more in Norway.   Having fewer religious people and more atheists has not made them worse in any way as your point in this thread would seem to indicate.  No evidence atheism makes people gloomy or hopeless.

4) Atheist people are not the factor that makes the nations you list "bad" places.  They are bad places run by dictators who don't want their people to worship anyone but themselves.  Dictators, whether religious or atheist, are bad. Atheism is a side show to the real cause, crazy power hungry dictators.

[Rigon]

That is my case.

This is the part where you say how and why I am wrong.  You could start by finally telling us the point of this thread if not "atheism is bad and makes life bad for people".   I have shown atheists are not bad and atheism does not make life bad for people...and we all already know dictators, whether atheist or religious, are bad.

That is the brief summary of my case. What is yours? Got one?

[zolace]

That is my case.

This is the part where you say how and why I am wrong.  You could start by finally telling us the point of this thread if not "atheism is bad and makes life bad for people".   I have shown atheists are not bad and atheism does not make life bad for people...and we all already know dictators, whether atheist or religious, are bad.

That is the brief summary of my case. What is yours? Got one?

Ok, so that is your case, but you agree that the link I have been asking  you about does not support that case.  If it did you would quote from it.

Fine, we can move onto your next claim.


Btw - several of the points you note above are addressed in that thread below, througout the thread.  I do find how the debate on 'bleakness' going rather interesting.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/FSA/Political-Discussion/Thoughts-on-religion-for-a-Sunday-morning-Part-two-11-1257364.html

[Rigon]

That is my case.

This is the part where you say how and why I am wrong.  You could start by finally telling us the point of this thread if not "atheism is bad and makes life bad for people".   I have shown atheists are not bad and atheism does not make life bad for people...and we all already know dictators, whether atheist or religious, are bad.

That is the brief summary of my case. What is yours? Got one?

Ok, so that is your case, but you agree that the link I have been asking  you about does not support that case.  If it did you would quote from it.

Fine, we can move onto your next claim.


Btw - several of the points you note above are addressed in that thread below, througout the thread.  I do find how the debate on 'bleakness' going rather interesting.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/FSA/Political-Discussion/Thoughts-on-religion-for-a-Sunday-morning-Part-two-11-1257364.html

No one piece of information is an island unto itself.  You are playing the creationist game.  You would like to discuss one single bone with an unusual result when dated radiometrically instead of considering the mountains of the data surrounding it in every other field of science.

I don't care if that one link all by itself only makes part of my case.Its all the information I presented that makes my case you kinda idiot.

Will you ever have the balls to state your case and acknowledge my questions?

The answer to that is most certainly no.

If you aren't going to ever make a point as to what you are saying here or otherwise continue to refuse to address my position and the questions it raises.....please go

[zolace]

That is my case.

This is the part where you say how and why I am wrong.  You could start by finally telling us the point of this thread if not "atheism is bad and makes life bad for people".   I have shown atheists are not bad and atheism does not make life bad for people...and we all already know dictators, whether atheist or religious, are bad.

That is the brief summary of my case. What is yours? Got one?

Ok, so that is your case, but you agree that the link I have been asking  you about does not support that case.  If it did you would quote from it.

Fine, we can move onto your next claim.


Btw - several of the points you note above are addressed in that thread below, througout the thread.  I do find how the debate on 'bleakness' going rather interesting.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/FSA/Political-Discussion/Thoughts-on-religion-for-a-Sunday-morning-Part-two-11-1257364.html

No one piece of information is an island unto itself.  You are playing the creationist game.  You would like to discuss one single bone with an unusual result when dated radiometrically instead of considering the mountains of the data surrounding it in every other field of science.

I don't care if that one link all by itself only makes part of my case.Its all the information I presented that makes my case you kinda idiot.

Will you ever have the balls to state your case and acknowledge my questions?

The answer to that is most certainly no.

If you aren't going to ever make a point as to what you are saying here or otherwise continue to refuse to address my position and the questions it raises.....please go

That is true - I have pointed that out before (though not in those words) when we have discussed the issue of origins.  I really wish you practiced what you preach.


I am not asking for conclusive evidence from the link below for your case - I am asking what pieces of information from that link leads to or contributes to your case.

And you have shown NOTHING really.  The link shows is that Norway is the happiest - but that is one piece of info.  From that same link, you conveniently ignore what else it says about Norway.  The other pieces of information - the other 'islands'.  And apparently intentionally, which is probably why you will not copy and paste such.

[Rigon]

That is my case.

This is the part where you say how and why I am wrong.  You could start by finally telling us the point of this thread if not "atheism is bad and makes life bad for people".   I have shown atheists are not bad and atheism does not make life bad for people...and we all already know dictators, whether atheist or religious, are bad.

That is the brief summary of my case. What is yours? Got one?

Ok, so that is your case, but you agree that the link I have been asking  you about does not support that case.  If it did you would quote from it.

Fine, we can move onto your next claim.


Btw - several of the points you note above are addressed in that thread below, througout the thread.  I do find how the debate on 'bleakness' going rather interesting.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/FSA/Political-Discussion/Thoughts-on-religion-for-a-Sunday-morning-Part-two-11-1257364.html

No one piece of information is an island unto itself.  You are playing the creationist game.  You would like to discuss one single bone with an unusual result when dated radiometrically instead of considering the mountains of the data surrounding it in every other field of science.

I don't care if that one link all by itself only makes part of my case.Its all the information I presented that makes my case you kinda idiot.

Will you ever have the balls to state your case and acknowledge my questions?

The answer to that is most certainly no.

If you aren't going to ever make a point as to what you are saying here or otherwise continue to refuse to address my position and the questions it raises.....please go

That is true - I have pointed that out before (though not in those words) when we have discussed the issue of origins.  I really wish you practiced what you preach.


I am not asking for conclusive evidence from the link below for your case - I am asking what pieces of information from that link leads to or contributes to your case.

And you have shown NOTHING really.  The link shows is that Norway is the happiest - but that is one piece of info.  From that same link, you conveniently ignore what else it says about Norway.  The other pieces of information - the other 'islands'.  And apparently intentionally, which is probably why you will not copy and paste such.

No.  I presented multiple pieces of information on Norways happiness.  How they rate high in numerous surveys and every year...not just one study.  Also other pieces of information on similar countries with similar happiness like Sweden, Denmakr, Astralia, new Zealand.

I presented other pieces of evidence regarding no atheists in prison.

I presented other pieces of evidence of low crime in nations with low religious belief.

I presented the evidence of their lower religious belief.

I presented multiple lines of evidence.,

You are quite simply a liar.   You are trying to have an argument around a single link if that was the entirely of my case.

[Rigon]

This is really quite unbelievable.  I think you are absolutely in an alternate reality.   He can sit there and claim I have only shown one little link with a few words to make my case.  It is all he has been able to discuss for 6 pages.  What about that one link ...how does it make your case....THAT ONE LINK...HERE IT IS AGAIN....WHAT ABOUT THE ONE LINK?  I proceed to show him multiple sources of surveys indicating the well being of people in MANY more nations than just Norway.  I provided data regarding the religious views of Norway and other nations included in my case.  I provided data on their lower crime rates and the crime rates of other nations with less importance placed on religion.  I provided data on atheists in prison and their very very low rate of incarceration compared to religious people. I provided way more than a single data source about happiness in one country to make the case that atheism doesn't make people bad.  Atheism is not the reason for poor behavior.

[Rigon]

That is my case.

This is the part where you say how and why I am wrong.  You could start by finally telling us the point of this thread if not "atheism is bad and makes life bad for people".   I have shown atheists are not bad and atheism does not make life bad for people...and we all already know dictators, whether atheist or religious, are bad.

That is the brief summary of my case. What is yours? Got one?

Ok, so that is your case, but you agree that the link I have been asking  you about does not support that case.  If it did you would quote from it.

Fine, we can move onto your next claim.


Btw - several of the points you note above are addressed in that thread below, througout the thread.  I do find how the debate on 'bleakness' going rather interesting.

http://forum2.aimoo.com/FSA/Political-Discussion/Thoughts-on-religion-for-a-Sunday-morning-Part-two-11-1257364.html

No one piece of information is an island unto itself.  You are playing the creationist game.  You would like to discuss one single bone with an unusual result when dated radiometrically instead of considering the mountains of the data surrounding it in every other field of science.

I don't care if that one link all by itself only makes part of my case.Its all the information I presented that makes my case you kinda idiot.

Will you ever have the balls to state your case and acknowledge my questions?

The answer to that is most certainly no.

If you aren't going to ever make a point as to what you are saying here or otherwise continue to refuse to address my position and the questions it raises.....please go

That is true - I have pointed that out before (though not in those words) when we have discussed the issue of origins.  I really wish you practiced what you preach.


I am not asking for conclusive evidence from the link below for your case - I am asking what pieces of information from that link leads to or contributes to your case.

And you have shown NOTHING really.  The link shows is that Norway is the happiest - but that is one piece of info.  From that same link, you conveniently ignore what else it says about Norway.  The other pieces of information - the other 'islands'.  And apparently intentionally, which is probably why you will not copy and paste such.

No.  I presented multiple pieces of information on Norways happiness.  How they rate high in numerous surveys and every year...not just one study.  Also other pieces of information on similar countries with similar happiness like Sweden, Denmakr, Astralia, new Zealand.

I presented other pieces of evidence regarding no atheists in prison.

I presented other pieces of evidence of low crime in nations with low religious belief.

I presented the evidence of their lower religious belief.

I presented multiple lines of evidence.,

You are quite simply a liar.   You are trying to have an argument around a single link if that was the entirely of my case.

You have responded with....well........nothing but denial and continued requests for me to make a different case from one link about Norway apparently.  I don't have a different case Tomas.  You are wrong, I have showed you evidence.  Evidence that refutes your position.

[Rigon]

This is the part where you provide evidence to the counter and attempt to state your case which you have not yet done.  This is your thread no?   Do you have a point?

[Rigon]

Actually, it is very believable.     he must continue to pretend I have made no case and that it is all about one link about Norway and none of the other points because.......he has no response, he has no case.  He cant answer my questions. 

He can never enter the realm of making a case for his position as long as he has none.  He must continue to make it about  my case, and he must ignore 80% of the points I've made and pretend they don't exist if he has any hope of hanging in there in this one-sided discussion with nothing other than "no it isn't" from him.  He cant even state his point in the thread other than "atheism is bad" which can only be inferred.

[zolace]

This is the part where you provide evidence to the counter and attempt to state your case which you have not yet done.  This is your thread no?   Do you have a point?

Ok, this was quite dishonest, so it blows off the rest of what you said.  I have clearly not said that.

I am pointing out that the link below, based so far on what you c&p from it, does not contribute to your case IN ANY WAY.  Now, once you agree, we can discard it and move on to the other links.

Or, if you disagree, c&p what does contribute to your case.    But, good luck with that - we both know the link below does not contribute to connecting Norwegians happiness with atheism (perhaps even the opposite) IN ANY WAY.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

[Rigon]

This is the part where you provide evidence to the counter and attempt to state your case which you have not yet done.  This is your thread no?   Do you have a point?

Ok, this was quite dishonest, so it blows off the rest of what you said.  I have clearly not said that.

I am pointing out that the link below, based so far on what you c&p from it, does not contribute to your case IN ANY WAY.  Now, once you agree, we can discard it and move on to the other links.

Or, if you disagree, c&p what does contribute to your case.    But, good luck with that - we both know the link below does not contribute to connecting Norwegians happiness with atheism (perhaps even the opposite) IN ANY WAY.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

Do you think anyone reading this  thinks you are actually "hanging in there"?  Perhaps "hanging yourself", "hanging in the wind", "hanging out to dry"......but not remotely "hanging in there". 

Address all the points in my case, make your case, or shut the fuck up and go home.  

I tell you what, lets pretend that single survey from Norway doesn't exist. I no longer have it in my arsenal to make my case.   There are plenty of other studies on well being and happiness in Norway and other similar nations...dozens of them.  The data on prisons stands alone.  The data on crime stands alone. 

[BADecker]

Are you two trying to see how long the moderator lets you keep your nonsense up?

[zolace]

This is the part where you provide evidence to the counter and attempt to state your case which you have not yet done.  This is your thread no?   Do you have a point?

Ok, this was quite dishonest, so it blows off the rest of what you said.  I have clearly not said that.

I am pointing out that the link below, based so far on what you c&p from it, does not contribute to your case IN ANY WAY.  Now, once you agree, we can discard it and move on to the other links.

Or, if you disagree, c&p what does contribute to your case.    But, good luck with that - we both know the link below does not contribute to connecting Norwegians happiness with atheism (perhaps even the opposite) IN ANY WAY.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

Do you think anyone reading this  thinks you are actually "hanging in there"?  Perhaps "hanging yourself", "hanging in the wind", "hanging out to dry"......but not remotely "hanging in there". 

Address all the points in my case, make your case, or shut the fuck up and go home.  

I tell you what, lets pretend that single survey from Norway doesn't exist. I no longer have it in my arsenal to make my case.   There are plenty of other studies on well being and happiness in Norway and other similar nations...dozens of them.  The data on prisons stands alone.  The data on crime stands alone. 

The above post stands - but maybe the below can make it simpler for you (I truly think you are also battling anger and ego issues here):


For the case of connecting Norwegian happiness with atheism (or even lack of religion):

In seeking to make you case, you have provided several links, including the one below - if we were to gather together the links that actually do contribute to your case, we can agree, that the one below should not be included, yes?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

[zolace]

Are you two trying to see how long the moderator lets you keep your nonsense up?

I am just trying to make a point,but if it bothers you,i am sorry!

[Rigon]

This is the part where you provide evidence to the counter and attempt to state your case which you have not yet done.  This is your thread no?   Do you have a point?

Ok, this was quite dishonest, so it blows off the rest of what you said.  I have clearly not said that.

I am pointing out that the link below, based so far on what you c&p from it, does not contribute to your case IN ANY WAY.  Now, once you agree, we can discard it and move on to the other links.

Or, if you disagree, c&p what does contribute to your case.    But, good luck with that - we both know the link below does not contribute to connecting Norwegians happiness with atheism (perhaps even the opposite) IN ANY WAY.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

Do you think anyone reading this  thinks you are actually "hanging in there"?  Perhaps "hanging yourself", "hanging in the wind", "hanging out to dry"......but not remotely "hanging in there". 

Address all the points in my case, make your case, or shut the fuck up and go home.  

I tell you what, lets pretend that single survey from Norway doesn't exist. I no longer have it in my arsenal to make my case.   There are plenty of other studies on well being and happiness in Norway and other similar nations...dozens of them.  The data on prisons stands alone.  The data on crime stands alone. 

The above post stands - but maybe the below can make it simpler for you (I truly think you are also battling anger and ego issues here):


For the case of connecting Norwegian happiness with atheism (or even lack of religion):

In seeking to make you case, you have provided several links, including the one below - if we were to gather together the links that actually do contribute to your case, we can agree, that the one below should not be included, yes?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2013/10/29/the-worlds-happiest-and-saddest-countries-2013/

You cant get your single brain cell away from one single post and one single link??   My case is not made from pieces of information from that one link in that one post.  My case is made up of far more data that I posted in many other places....with more links and citations.

Go back and read any of the seven times I summarized all 4 or 5 parts of the case and associated citations.

You are a surreal human being .  The lengths you will go to avoid answering questions or recognizing what is right in front of your face is astounding.  It's idiocy of biblical proportions.....probably the closest you'll ever get to your god.